[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by RadixLecti

Attachment 2176034

Holy banana conrod, Batman! I have so many questions - what engine and rating, what happened to the cylinder walls, how catastrophic was the explosion?

[troika]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Holy banana conrod, Batman! I have so many questions - what engine and rating, what happened to the cylinder walls, how catastrophic was the explosion?

Looks like a marine slow speed 2 stroke Diesel engine. Can’t even begin to imagine what the engine frame would have looked like after that accident.

[RadixLecti]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Holy banana conrod, Batman! I have so many questions - what engine and rating, what happened to the cylinder walls, how catastrophic was the explosion?

It's a large marine 2-stroke diesel engine. Specifically a B&W K98 series engine, meaning a 98 cm cylinder bore. I don't recall how many units (i.e. cylinders) this engine had. For reference, a 12 cylinder engine in this series produces around 70 MW.

This happened in the factory during a shop test. A lifting pin had been left in the crankshaft:



From what I was told, all this happened at the start attempt. This is what happened to the liner (i.e. the cylinder walls):



As you can see, the piston appears to be quite misaligned . But enough digressions, I turn the thread back to OP and his unfortunate experience.

[niruvrs9669]

Finally there's an update from BMW service manager on the engine issue:

Observations made after dismantling the engine:
1) The 3rd cylinder in the engine had a piston freeze.
2) The piston (in the 3rd cylinder) is bent
3) The cylinder inner surface is clean (wonder how!)
4) The connecting rod bearing(s) are broken
5) The engine oil tested had metal content in it.

Parts Replacement proposed by BMW:
1) Replacement of piston and connected accessories in the 3rd cylinder
2) Connecting rod and bearings to be replaced.
3) Crank shaft itself to be replaced
4) Engine oil pump & filter to be replaced to clear metal debris
5) Turbo to be replaced as there is possibility of metal debris in it.

It looks like the service team is simply pushing for low cost & time taking repair work at this stage which I'm not interested in. What they don't understand is that this isn't some cheap Mahindra tractor to pull the engine out replace parts and put things together, rebore if needed and send it to the field even if the engine performance drops by 10-15%.

When asked why they aren't considering the engine replacement under warranty when so many part replacements including the turbo are considered, I was told that lot of BMW cars with hydrostatic locks get repaired in their service center and their team is well equipped to handle the engine repairs to that degree !

Way ahead:

1) I've already copied BMW India folks on this matter, looking forward for their confirmation in engine replacement under warranty.

2) Looks like the dealer isn't too keen on engine replacement, so it seems pointless to discuss brand loyalty & customer grievances with these folks.

3) I'm planning to reach out to BMW President Mr.Vikram Pawah to report this issue, specifically the 3rd failure on a well maintained car to seek his intervention for engine replacement under warranty.

4) If the BMW President doesn't blink, I'm planning to rent a flat bed towing machine for a month to tow my BMW X5 all around Bangalore every single day for next 30 days after delivery and bring some awareness to the prospective buyers, that a flat bed is necessary to maintain a BMW. You never know where it breaks down and who will help you !

5) Faulty vehicle brand video for circulation to Mercedes & Audi's who can play it in their customer lounges to easily kill their competition. I had already created one when the fuel pump gave on the 12th day after delivery in 2016, but didn't go for circulation, it just needs to be updated now. The common factor in all the 3 failures is a flat bed tow truck, I've got good shiny photos of it.

6) Legal notice and paper notification of this reputed brand who probably doesn't care much about a BMW loyalist (until now) who also has a RR Ghost, 2019 M2 and faulty 2016 X5 in his family garage and was planning on getting another X5 Phev/40i in next 2-3 months. We have decent credits left with the newspaper agencies due to Covid lockdowns for use.

Appreciate team-bhpians 2 cents on my above action plan.

[v1p3r]

Ask your RR relationship manager to have a word with BMW India. That should sort everything out. With the amount of money you've sent them, this should resolve itself rather quickly.

It looks to me like whoever you're dealing with currently has no idea of the net worth of your relationship with the brand.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

3) The cylinder inner surface is clean (wonder how!)
4) The connecting rod bearing(s) are broken

Parts Replacement proposed

It looks like the service team is simply pushing for low cost & time taking repair work at this stage which I'm not interested in.

You should try to escalate via the dealership at this stage, usually, when taken up by the dealership, they take a call. Remember, it's a risk for them also that after fitting all these new components, things may not work.

I have passed a link of this post to someone concerned at HQ and let's see how they help. I will give them a fair chance before taking any other measure as usually, BMW is supportive.

Expect something by Monday hopefully.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

...

It looks to me like whoever you're dealing with currently has no idea of the net worth of your relationship with the brand.

I don't know what's more unfortunate; that he may need to resort to this, or that this is the only approach that seems to work with brands.

If he was a 'poor' customer with a single BMW and faced the same thing, he'd be out of luck with no leverage to lean on.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

1) I've already copied BMW India folks on this matter, looking forward for their confirmation in engine replacement under warranty.

2) Looks like the dealer isn't too keen on engine replacement, so it seems pointless to discuss brand loyalty & customer grievances with these folks.

3) I'm planning to reach out to BMW President Mr.Vikram Pawah to report this issue, specifically the 3rd failure on a well maintained car to seek his intervention for engine replacement under warranty.

4) If the BMW President doesn't blink, I'm planning to rent a flat bed towing machine for a month to tow my BMW X5 all around Bangalore every single day for next 30 days after delivery and bring some awareness to the prospective buyers, that a flat bed is necessary to maintain a BMW. You never know where it breaks down and who will help you !

5) Faulty vehicle brand video for circulation to Mercedes & Audi's who can play it in their customer lounges to easily kill their competition. I had already created one when the fuel pump gave on the 12th day after delivery in 2016, but didn't go for circulation, it just needs to be updated now. The common factor in all the 3 failures is a flat bed tow truck, I've got good shiny photos of it.

6) Legal notice and paper notification of this reputed brand who probably doesn't care much about a BMW loyalist (until now) who also has a RR Ghost, 2019 M2 and faulty 2016 X5 in his family garage and was planning on getting another X5 Phev/40i in next 2-3 months. We have decent credits left with the newspaper agencies due to Covid lockdowns for use.

Appreciate team-bhpians 2 cents on my above action plan.

Abroad, it would be cheaper to replace with a short engine.

Do consider that the car has done considerable miles. The failure no doubt is premature. If the car is under warranty or you are seeking goodwill, repair is what they would propose due to our cheaper labour costs and high duty structure. but you should get some sort of warranty. Again, you most probably would need to pay for some of the wear and tear.

Engine Replacement - Unless you contribute to this, I doubt this will be a path that will be considered.

Flatbed publicity - Its not going to work unless you involve the press and choose the area where you wish to display this. Again, you risk alienating BMW - if that what you wish to do.

Video to rivals - They won't play it - it would be construed as slander etc. Also it does to look good for their brand. Not many people hire folks who slander their previous employers!

If you had complete upto 40-50000km complete with all service history and the ECU does not have any logged misuse you - you have a much stronger case. Higher usage adde other variables - quality of fuel etc.

It will be a long negotiation.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

Finally there's an update from BMW service manager on the engine issue:

Observations made after dismantling the engine:
1) The 3rd cylinder in the engine had a piston freeze.
2) The piston (in the 3rd cylinder) is bent
3) The cylinder inner surface is clean (wonder how!)
4) The connecting rod bearing(s) are broken
5) The engine oil tested had metal content in it.

Parts Replacement proposed by BMW:
1) Replacement of piston and connected accessories in the 3rd cylinder
2) Connecting rod and bearings to be replaced.
3) Crank shaft itself to be replaced
4) Engine oil pump & filter to be replaced to clear metal debris
5) Turbo to be replaced as there is possibility of metal debris in it.
[/b]

What do they mean by "piston freeze"? Is it piston seize? And bent piston? I am hearing for the first time. I have heard bent connecting rods but never a bent piston. Can you ask them to send the photographs of these parts?

Also insist on inspecting the canshaft, valves and timing chain. If all this trauma is because of broken timing chain failure, your case will be stronger.

And if they say that the cylinder inner surface (liner) is clean, inspect it yourself and compare it with the other three cylinders.

If the cylinder hasn't really damaged, then I think repair shall work well; they are replacing the piston, conrod with bearings, crankshaft, turbo and oil pump. Also ask if the valves, tappets, rockers, camshaft or any other parts in the head need replacement.

If there are minor scratches, the cylinders are honed. But if there are major scratches, then they are re-bored, fitted with oversized pistons. IMO, you shall not accept this. But if the cylinder is good, then replacing the the other parts shall not affect the performance.

As a car lover, we all will be happy with engine replacement in this situation. But under warranty, it is always the manufacturer's decision about repair / replace.

I won't advise you to defame them in general public. Instead share your genuine concern on the BMW owners' groups on social media.

[niruvrs9669]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

I have passed a link of this post to someone concerned at HQ and let's see how they help. I will give them a fair chance before taking any other measure as usually, BMW is supportive.

Expect something by Monday hopefully.

Thank you very much for your support. Appreciate it

[niruvrs9669]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

If there are minor scratches, the cylinders are honed. But if there are major scratches, then they are re-bored, fitted with oversized pistons. IMO, you shall not accept this.

As a car lover, we all will be happy with engine replacement in this situation. But under warranty, it is always the manufacturer's decision about repair / replace.

I won't advise you to defame them in general public. Instead share your genuine concern on the BMW owners' groups on social media.

Thank you for the pointers Rahul.

Will be inspecting the dismantled engine parts today along with my friend Venkat to check on the detail mentioned in your post. Couple pictures enclosed but we can't make out much in these images.

I'm expecting professional approach from BMW to fix this issue and not treat it as just another hydrostatic locked SUV due to driver's fault.

[niruvrs9669]

We (Venkat and I) visited the service center yesterday;

Observations made after dismantling the engine. The following detail was compiled by Venkat to avoid any ambiguity in technical word usage.

1) The 3rd cylinder in the engine had a piston freeze.

V: This made no sense and was confirmed when we saw things for ourselves. The piston did not look deformed enough to get stuck in the cylinder. At most, there might have been carbon deposits above the top ring that didn't let the piston pop out of the cylinder easily.

2) The piston (in the 3rd cylinder) is bent.

V: Pistons don't bend; they crack. No idea what BMW meant by this either.

3) The cylinder inner surface is clean (wonder how!)

V: Because the piston and connecting rod were fine, there was no scoring that took place.

4) The connecting rod bearing(s) are broken

V: Constant friction between the bearing shell and crank pin started peeling layers off the bearing until all the soft material on the bearing was destroyed, and the final steel backing layer was exposed, at which point the crankshaft started taking damage and the extreme heat generated as a result of this friction turned the rod big end blue. If one were to take a bore gauge and check the big end assembly, they'd find it to be not round anymore since the heat warped the bore. The crankshaft, of course, is scrap now.

5) The engine oil tested had metal content in it.

V: From all the metal being shed by the above mentioned process.

Additional observations (Venkat):

1. The bearing shells are around 1.5mm thick. Erosion of that material effectively added another 1.5mm in stroke to the piston. Since this is a diesel with a completely flat head and minimal clearance between the head surface and the piston top, an extra 1.5mm in stroke caused the piston to make contact with the head and it is evident because the cylinder in question has the usual carbon deposit knocked out. However, since this happened at low engine speeds and the car was immediately shut down as soon as the noise was heard, there was no lasting damage to the piston or head. Prolonged contact would certainly have shattered the piston and the resulting pieces would have scored everything they touched on their way down. Luckily for the block and head, that didn't happen.

2. Rod bearings from all other cylinders except one also had very clear signs of scoring on them. This points to a general lubrication problem, and has absolutely nothing to do with how the car was driven over its life. Everybody here uses BMW LL-04 spec oil because it keeps the DPF happy. What they seem to be missing or ignoring is the fact that BMW itself forbids the use of LL-04 outside EU since the oil cannot effectively protect against sulfur contaminants in fuel outside EU. Add to this the fact that they stretch the change intervals (it's in the name, after aLL), the engine sees accelerated wear and tear. Even my F10 530d that was serviced regularly at BMW with their own recommended oil has a bunch of blow by and uneven compression across the board when I bought it at 80K. The biggest favor I did to it was to throw the DPF as far as I could and switch to LL-01, which is a much superior lubricant and protectant. A lot of other manufacturers seem to have recognized this issue and delete DPFs from their cars before they launched them into the Indian market, but BMW chose not to. As a result, people have to choose between accelerated engine wear to preserve their warranty and keep "upgrading" every 3 years or so, or risk losing their warranty to keep their engines healthy and hold on to their cars as long as possible. This is planned obsolescence at its finest.
This claim is further bolstered by the fact that my good friend Joe AKA @swiftboost has two of the same engines sitting at his place in Kochi that have suffered identical failures at a similar mileage. This is in addition to all the indirect information out there on forums across the world.


Parts Replacement proposed by BMW:

1) Replacement of piston and connected accessories in the 3rd cylinder

V: Absolutely not. BMW's own TIS forbids replacing a single connecting rod since all six rods are weight matched and balanced before assembly. Replacing a single rod will introduce an imbalance that will cause further problems down the line, and completely destroy the smooth, creamy nature of these I6s that we have come to love.

2) Connecting rod and bearings to be replaced.
V: Agreed

3) Crank shaft itself to be replaced
V: Agreed

4) Engine oil pump & filter to be replaced to clear metal debris
V: Agreed

5) Turbo to be replaced as there is possibility of metal debris in it.

V: This might be unnecessary since the metal debris was caught in the oil filter and didn't propagate downstream. However, removal of the turbo could have caused some carbon deposits around the turbine shaft to dislodge and potentially cause lubrication problems if the turbo is reused. So this is 50 / 50.

Additional comments (Venkat):

At this point, the only things salvageable from the entire debacle are the head assembly and block castings. They absolutely *must* replace the crank, oil pump, 6 connecting rods, 12 rod bearing shells, 14 main bearing shells and every single high tensile bolt holding the engine together that they undid.

Even though they said they'd throw a set of new rings on the pistons and shove them right back in, this is unacceptable because the bores are completely glazed as after all this usage, and if the piston to bore clearances aren't out of spec already, they will be once the bores are rehoned. Honing is NOT optional because new rings will not seat otherwise. Properly addressing this situation will now require a full set of 1st oversize pistons and rings (+.25mm), an appropriate rebore and a proper honing job. That adds 6 pistons and basically a new block to the already significant list of parts above.
With this laundry list of parts that need to be replaced, it would be simpler for BMW to just issue a half engine assembly instead, as is the norm everywhere *except* India where they seem to have a very low opinion of their customers' intelligence.

We made it crystal clear to the RM there that nothing less than a replacement block or a properly rebuilt block with oversize pistons would be an acceptable resolution. This isn't about what's cheap or convenient, but what's right, and if BMW have any sense of pride in their brand, they'll do things the right way instead of issuing band aid solutions that directly contradict the instructions in their own service manual.

This car was never molested at any point in its life, and this isn't even remotely the customer's problem. All responsibility of making this situation right rests squarely on BMW's shoulders. The half measures they are currently proposing will completely destroy any sense of confidence the customer will have in the car, and pretty much guarantee premature problems very soon down the line.

I'm sure the "technical head" who is pushing this so called solution would not perform the same thing on his own BMW if it failed similarly. For their own sake, I hope BMW see the light and do what's right by the customer.

[niruvrs9669]

Photos from service center enclosed for illustration.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

This points to a general lubrication problem, and has absolutely nothing to do with how the car was driven over its life. Everybody here uses BMW LL-04 spec oil because it keeps the DPF happy. What they seem to be missing or ignoring is the fact that BMW itself forbids the use of LL-04 outside EU since the oil cannot effectively protect against sulfur contaminants in fuel outside EU.

That looks interesting, can you point to more readings, this can be super useful to guys like GTO, who have cars outside of warranties and approaching higher mileage.

said they'd throw a set of new rings on the pistons and shove them right back in, this is unacceptable because the bores are completely glazed as after all this usage, and if the piston to bore clearances aren't out of spec already, they will be once the bores are rehoned.

I used to get this done on my old Maruti 800 way back in the late nineties when the car will start emitting smoke. This used to be done by filing the rings manually and matching in the bore one by one under a mango tree, looks like some things never change. What a pity to suggest something like this.

With this laundry list of parts that need to be replaced, it would be simpler for BMW to just issue a half engine assembly instead...We made it crystal clear to the RM there that nothing less than a replacement block or a properly rebuilt block with oversize pistons would be an acceptable resolution.

Is this actually proposed by BMW or just this technical guy at the Dealership? The reasons being that BMW in the past never encourages the use of sleeves or oversize rings etc. Looks this technical guy has an experience at some other place or these complaints have increased so much that they have resorted to such stop-gap arrangements.

if BMW have any sense of pride in their brand, they'll do things the right way instead of issuing band aid solutions that directly contradict the instructions in their own service manual.

As I wrote before, if the findings do not point to any delays to services or anything else, you don't need to worry. Let them review everything, your case has all the attention at HQ

[Kosfactor]

Thank you for the detailed pictures, that's the spirit.

That block has cylinders so close to each other, are they generally re-bored? Looks like it needs a replacement instead since a piston has been on the loose inside.

Head has taken a hammering from the piston as can be seen from the marks it has made on C3, that entire assembly needs to be replaced, along with the bottom end and wherever the engine oil with so much metal bits have been to.

New Engine BMW, not band aid.