[ais]

It seems Maruti Suzuki India Ltd. has dropped it's service and customer satisfaction standards. Following is a summary of my issue- a safety related one at that, and lack of resolution by the company, represented by Mr. Karan Kumar, TSM, Nexa and others on 21 December 2021. Basically, the front right wheel brake disc groans on light braking, and the wheel locks up on medium to hard braking and skids.


Dear sir,

My Maruti Baleno Regn. No. HRxxxxxxxx was brought to Sai Service Centre, Andheri East, Mumbai in March 2021 and the issue of Right Front Wheel locking under medium to hard braking, especially on wet surfaces was highlighted. This issue has surfaced only since October 2020, and for the first 3 years of ownership, there was no problem.

Manager Mr. Manish extended full cooperation and had the brake system bled, rotor and shoes cleaned and adjusted, and calipers cleaned and lubricated. However, the problem persisted, despite 3 repeat visits to workshop. He was kind enough to vists my residence and test the car on my drive ramp, and observed the problem. One more attempt was made at the workshop to rectify the issue.

Last week, Mr. Manish and Mr. Karan TSM Nexa visted my residence personally and I demonstrated the wheel lock on the ramp of my building. They acknowledged the issue, but I am awaiting resolution.

Meanwhile, on two instances of emergency braking, the front right wheel has locked, and I was able to avert an accident only due to my experience and driving skill. However, I may not be lucky forever.

My request to all of you is to replace the entire braking system from the brake pedal to the brake shoes and not jeopardize my safety any longer.

In case an accident occurs post sending this email, please note that the liability will be entirely yours. Any loss of life or limb, mine or 3rd party, damage to my car or any other vehicle involved in an accident with my car will be entirely yours. Without prejudice to above, in case any repairs are needed post an accident hereafter, they will be done by you without invoking the car's insurance.

Finally requesting you to expedite the process.

Regards,

A. I. Singh

After wasting 3 weeks, Mr. Karan replied as follows-

Dear Sir,

Greetings from Maruti Suzuki India Ltd !

This is with reference to your email dated 21st Dec concerning your Maruti Suzuki Vehicle bearing registration number HRxxxxxxxx. At the outset, we thank you for your patronage with Maruti Suzuki Products and Services.

To our understanding of correct factual position, your vehicle has been duly attended and inspected by authorised dealer- M/S Sai service on 18th Nov’21. Basis on the inspection, no abnormality has been observed in the functioning of the vehicle and same is in roadworthy condition. You can drive the same with confidence.

We hope this clarifies the concern. In case of any further assistance, may feel free to contact us.

Thank You.
Regards
Karan Kumar
Territory Service Manager
NEXA - Mumbai

After owning Marutis since 1989, with a hassle free ownership of 20 years with Esteem and 15 with an Alto, this lackadaisical, irresponsible and callous response was not expected. I have given them another week to resolve the issue, before I initiate legal action.

[gkveda]

I understand the difficult situation faced by you. Per your post, the dealership has accepted the issue without resistance, put all its efforts but unable to solve the problem. So, the matter has been escalated to MSL management. There has been no response from the manufacturer for 3 weeks and after 3 weeks, there is a response stating the issue has been rectified to your satisfaction.

Please clarify
1. Have you told to dealer that the issue is not rectified in spite of several attempts and you are escalating to MSL? The reason I am asking is, after last attempt of rectifying the issue by the dealer, dealer may be thinking issue is rectified since you have not gone back to him and complained again. They would have closed the job card assuming the issue is rectified.

The above miscommunication may be one reason why MSL would have responded the way they have responded.

I agree that there should not have been a delay of 3 weeks to respond to customer complaint. My suggestion is make it very clear to them that issue is NOT resolved and they need to send engineers from company to solve the issue since dealer is not able to solve in spite of repeated attempts.

And coming to legal action part, I am acting like devils advocate.Please pardon me for being opposite side lawyer. If you go legally, on what basis do you think you can prove to court that manufacturer or dealer has cheated or committed crime? The car has run without trouble for 3 years and now there is some issue cropped up. Manufacturer and dealership is responsible to rectify the issue. Your mail states they have put all their efforts to rectify the issue. And all that the MSL states is, as per their records, issue is rectified. They have never told that they will not rectify the issue (if it still exists)

If you drive the car and unexpected happens to you or someone on the road, you are equally responsible for taking the defective car out for drive knowing that the issue still exists. So, in my opinion, legally you can not prove manufacturers guilt

[ais]

Originally Posted by gkveda

1. there is a response stating the issue has been rectified to your satisfaction.

Please clarify
2. Have you told to dealer that the issue is not rectified in spite of several attempts and you are escalating to MSL? They would have closed the job card assuming the issue is rectified.

3. And all that the MSL states is, as per their records, issue is rectified. They have never told that they will not rectify the issue (if it still exists)

4. So, in my opinion, legally you can not prove manufacturers guilt

Thanks for your points.

To reply, I have numbered your key points 1-4.

1. The reply by Mr. Karan does not say issue has been rectified. It says "Basis on the inspection, no abnormality has been observed in the functioning of the vehicle and same is in roadworthy condition. You can drive the same with confidence.". So it is an error in their observation. The truth is that Mr. Karan and Mr. Manish saw, felt and heard the issue in a test drive. They can see it again if in doubt. The issue is there.

2. The dealer (Mr. Manish from service centre Sai Service, Andheri E) was present in the test drives. He has been updated today also. Karan does not take calls and replies to WhatsApp messages in his own sweet time. I tried calling him today as well. Job card is not closed AFAIK.

3. The car was under extended warranty till September and the issue will be resolved under warranty as it was raised prior to expiry. But to rectify the issue, they must acknowledge, not deny it.

4. Yes I can. In fact Mr. Manish and his mechanic, standing on the driveway of my residential complex, attempted to record the wheel locking on their phone camera while I braked. However, the sequence proved too fast to record. It didn't occur to me then that I have a high speed camera I use for sports! I will try recording this weekend. I'll update here asap.

The guilt isn't in a defect cropping up in due course. The guilt is in not being able to get to it's root cause and rectify the problem. I cannot be expected to park the car away! I have already suggested that the entire brake system be replaced. I have also offered to leave the car with them for the problem to be diagnosed. Instead of trying, Karan has washed his hands off- that won't work with me.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by ais

Basically, the front right wheel brake disc groans on light braking, and the wheel locks up on medium to hard braking and skids.

Not commenting on the proficiency or otherwise of the Nexa Service Centre at Panchkula, but this is not a major issue to fix. If the front right wheel locks up at high speeds, it probably has something to do with an issue with the ABS system, and that should throw an error code on OBD scanning (even though the check engine light or ABS light does not glow). Did the Nexa people run an OBD-II scan?

It could also be due to a few mechanical reasons, the first being a blocked hydraulic line to the front left wheel.

Are you seeing any unusual pattern of tyre wear?

[ais]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Not commenting on the proficiency or otherwise of the Nexa Service Centre at Panchkula, but this is not a major issue to fix. If the front right wheel locks up at high speeds, it probably has something to do with an issue with the ABS system, and that should throw an error code on OBD scanning (even though the check engine light or ABS light does not glow). Did the Nexa people run an OBD-II scan?

It could also be due to a few mechanical reasons, the first being a blocked hydraulic line to the front left wheel.

Are you seeing any unusual pattern of tyre wear?

The repair efforts were made in Mumbai where the car and I are since March 2021.

Locking is not at high speed, but at all speeds including slow- just that the brake application has to be on the hard side to cause the locking. Wet or gravelly surfaces are sure to show this problem. Its fine at soft or normal braking. OBD scan showed nothing abnormal- timings etc were same for all 4 wheels. ABS light does not flash and is not on after engine start, meaning there is unlikely to be any issue in the electronics. I'm sure its a mechanical issue, becuase of the odd sounds. It can't be a blocked hydraulic line as the system was bled each of the 4 visits. The shoes, discs, rotors were cleaned. The caliper pins cleaned and lubricated, though this bit I did not oversee personally- I will now. No unusual tyre wear.

I am going to record with a 200-600 frames/second camera tomorrow, since Maruti isn't convinced, and I need evidence too. After that I will also swap the front wheels. If the problem shifts to the left side, then it would be a wheel/tyre issue.

Thanks for the points- it is with such points, suggestions and experiences that the issue might get resolved, leading to my safety and also anybody else facing similar issue.

Any co Team-BHP.com members facing similar issue, especially brake groaning on soft application of brakes, please advise.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by ais

The repair efforts were made in Mumbai where the car and I are since March 2021.

Apologies - your location shows Panchkula.

Wet or gravelly surfaces are sure to show this problem. Its fine at soft or normal braking. OBD scan showed nothing abnormal- timings etc were same for all 4 wheels. ABS light does not flash and is not on after engine start, meaning there is unlikely to be any issue in the electronics.

Ask them to re-scan, and pull up old stored codes if not already deleted.

I'm sure its a mechanical issue, becuase of the odd sounds.

Could just be glazed brake pads. How many km has your car run?

It can't be a blocked hydraulic line as the system was bled each of the 4 visits.

Bleeding the brakes does not show up blocked hydraulic pipes. They need to be taken out and checked for patency of line by blowing from both ends.

Any co Team-BHP.com members facing similar issue, especially brake groaning on soft application of brakes, please advise.

Read this thread (Grinding noise from the brakes) - nothing new.

[gthang]

Originally Posted by ais

Any co Team-BHP.com members facing similar issue, especially brake groaning on soft application of brakes, please advise.

Does your car have the EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) feature? Have that checked.

Also the hydraulic proportioning valve.

Failure of either of the two can cause excessive hydraulic force applied to one wheel.

Just follow the Maruti issue escalation matrix and contact the highest level you can, am sure they will respond.

Cheers

[2000rpm]

This seems to be a simple issue. Change the ABS sensor and try the same.

Get this to a experienced NON-MARUTI mechanic who is used to repairing high end cars and he will solve this in no time.

Complex systems are typically "OUT OF SCOPE" for Maruti mechanics.

[ais]

Friends, thanks for your inputs.

I made videos at a safe location on a wet, slippery surface and checked in slow motion. Video uploaded on YouTube and link shared below. It turns out that the wheels (all 4) are behaving normally, except that the front right wheel is locking very slightly at the end. Otherwise, the ABS does activate, and there is some wheel skid, but its in all 4 wheels so I guess it is normal.

Just that if I need a shorter braking distance, I'll need better tyres like Michelin Primacy etc. I'll need to drive carefully in wet conditions or slick surfaces meanwhile.

I've updated Mr. Manish and sent him the videos. We have agreed to close the matter. Whenever it rains next in Mumbai, we will be taking a showroom demo Baleno and compare brake performance with mine.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=l8JGdEBvwcM?feature=share

[sagarpadaki]

From the YouTube video I still feel the braking distance is more considering the speed of the car on the wet concrete. Check if the tyres are over inflated. For test purpose, set all the tyres at 30psi cold with a proper tyre pressure Guage and perform the test again.

In my opinion, the brand of tyre should not matter at such low speed braking performance unless the existing tyres are old and worn

[vgaquarius]

Seeing the Youtube video, I was reminded of a diagnostic check related to this I read in one of my Automotive Engineering books in the last semester. Modern braking systems make use of a dual-master cylinder setup which is basically designed to nullify break imbalance in worst case scenarios.
The basic idea is to prevent the vehicle from pulling in one particular direction in case of brake failure on one cylinder.

This means if there is a pressure/hydraulic leak in one line, the effect would be passed on to the diagonally opposite wheel too!

As in Your case the front right wheel is creating a problem, try observing the rear left for the same defective characteristics.

It would be easier to notice it in the rear wheel as the imbalance would be much more because of the rear ones being drum brakes. If the rear left wheel has similar characteristics, then the brake lines have a pressure leak or some blockage.
If it doesn't exhibit the same traits, you can begin to suspect individual calliper piston and pins, the ABS sensor, ABS booster pump and the supply lines.

Drive Safe!

[shancz]

Originally Posted by ais

Whenever it rains next in Mumbai, we will be taking a showroom demo Baleno and compare brake performance with mine.

Glad that you've reached an understanding with the ASC.

Few queries from the video :
- had you firmly applied/slammed on the brakes ? if not please try that too the next time.
- the lock up behaviour observed is something I have noticed in other cars and bikes on sand/gravelly surfaces but since your speed was slow and without the brake pressure info I cannot say they're similar.

The decision to compare with a showroom Baleno seems fair, keep us updated.

[ais]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Could just be glazed brake pads. How many km has your car run?

Bleeding the brakes does not show up blocked hydraulic pipes. They need to be taken out and checked for patency of line by blowing from both ends.

Read this thread (Grinding noise from the brakes) - nothing new.

Pads are ok. Car had done just 23000km in 4 years. Tyres are fine, with tread depth around 5-6mm aprox.

Originally Posted by gthang

Does your car have the EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) feature? Have that checked.

Also the hydraulic proportioning valve.

Failure of either of the two can cause excessive hydraulic force applied to one wheel

I'll check. Last post by Shancz also is on these lines.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

From the YouTube video I still feel the braking distance is more considering the speed of the car on the wet concrete. Check if the tyres are over inflated. For test purpose, set all the tyres at 30psi cold with a proper tyre pressure Guage and perform the test again.

In my opinion, the brand of tyre should not matter at such low speed braking performance unless the existing tyres are old and worn

Pressure is 28.5, which works best for this car without load. Even a 1 lb difference either way changes the harshness/coasting of ride.

The braking distance does seem long, and I'll check with another Baleno. Now that you've raised this important point, Ill check that Baleno's tyres and pressure before comparing.

Originally Posted by vgaquarius

Seeing the Youtube video, I was reminded of a diagnostic check related to this I read in one of my Automotive Engineering books in the last semester. Modern braking systems make use of a dual-master cylinder setup which is basically designed to nullify break imbalance in worst case scenarios.
The basic idea is to prevent the vehicle from pulling in one particular direction in case of brake failure on one cylinder.

Attachment 2257329

This means if there is a pressure/hydraulic leak in one line, the effect would be passed on to the diagonally opposite wheel too!

As in Your case the front right wheel is creating a problem, try observing the rear left for the same defective characteristics.

It would be easier to notice it in the rear wheel as the imbalance would be much more because of the rear ones being drum brakes. If the rear left wheel has similar characteristics, then the brake lines have a pressure leak or some blockage.
If it doesn't exhibit the same traits, you can begin to suspect individual calliper piston and pins, the ABS sensor, ABS booster pump and the supply lines.

Drive Safe!

This is informative. Thanks! But the rear tyres are turning and stopping together under hard braking.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=JPLs4GZkc8M?feature=share

Originally Posted by shancz

Glad that you've reached an understanding with the ASC.

Few queries from the video :
- had you firmly applied/slammed on the brakes ? if not please try that too the next time.
- the lock up behaviour observed is something I have noticed in other cars and bikes on sand/gravelly surfaces but since your speed was slow and without the brake pressure info I cannot say they're similar.

The decision to compare with a showroom Baleno seems fair, keep us updated.

Yes, brakes were applied hard. I could feel the ABS vibration on the brake pedal.

The surface was very slippery. I even had to walk carefully on it despite wearing sports running shoes.

Will update.

[1.2TSI7DSG]

I have a very fundamental question.

When you brake hard, is the ABS actuated? If it is, then only the front right wheel actuator has an issue. If not, then there can be a problem anywhere in the ABS module.

[shancz]

Linking a couple of videos of ABS action in wet and gravel.
This is what I was mentioning earlier, see if it helps.

Credits to Providers :
Watch from 1:40

Action Master : ABS Wet surface

Watch from 2:26

AIR Motovlogs : ABS Gravel