[ravi966]

hi guys,


want to know about alternate fuels like cng / lpg.



cleaner fuels for a greener tomorrow

[revtech]

hey ravi966
welcome to tbhp.please introduce your self stating the car/bike you drive/ride.what you do etc.

do not forget to read all the announcemants before you start posting.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=17


rev

[Montoya]

Welcome ravi966..

Use the search button and you will find alot about them..

Refer this link..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showth...&highlight=CNG

[nitrous]

welcome aboard, Ravi.

[X-Machine]

Hey Ravi,
Welcome to the team.Why do you want cng/lpg??? Look for electric cars for a greener and bright tommorow.

X

[ravi966]

dont know why u guys have a wrong impression about lpg ? in uk people are testing racing cars on lpg.

[pawan]

1.HYDROGEN

Hydrogen does not come as a pre-existing source of energy like fossil fuel, but rather as a carrier, much like a battery. It can be made from both renewable and non-renewable energy sources. A potential advantage of hydrogen is that it could be produced and consumed continuously, using solar,water,wind and nuclear power for electrolysis. Currently, however, hydrogen vehicles utilizing hydrogen produced using hydrocarbons, produce more pollution than vehicles consuming gasoline,diesel, or methane in a modern i.c engine, and far more than plug i electronic vehicles.This is because, although hydrogen fuel cells generate less CO2 than conventional internal combustion engines, production of the hydrogen creates additional emissions. While methods of hydrogen production that do not use fossil fuel would be more sustainable, currently such production is not economically feasible, and diversion of renewable energy (which represents only 2% of energy generated) to the production of hydrogen for transportation applications is inadvisable.
The recorded number of hydrogen-powered public vehicles in the United States was 200 as of April 2007, mostly in California,and a significant amount of research is underway to try to make the technology viable. The common i.c engine, usually fueled with gasoline (petrol) or diesel liquids, can be converted to run on gaseous hydrogen. However, the more energy efficient use of hydrogen involves the use of fuel cell and electric motors instead of a traditional engine. Hydrogen reacts with oxygen inside the fuel cells, which produces electricity to power the motors. One primary area of research is hydrogen storage , to try to increase the range of hydrogen vehicles, while reducing the weight, energy consumption, and complexity of the storage systems. Two primary methods of storage are metal hydrides and compression.
High-speed cars,buses,submarines and rockets already can run on hydrogen, in various forms at great expense. NASA uses hydrogen to launch Space Shuttles into space. There is even a working toy model car that runs on solar power, using a reversible fuel cell to store energy in the form of hydrogen and oxyge gas. It can then convert the fuel back into water to release the solar energy.

cars using them:
1.bmw hydrogen 7
2.Daimler Chrysler f cell
3.ford focus fcv
4.gm
5.honda ev plus and fcx(mot popular)
6hyudai tucson fcev.
7.mazda rx8
8.nissan x trail fcv

to name a few

2.
ETHANOL

Ethanol fuel is a bio fuel alternative to gasoline. It can be combined with gasoline in any concentration up to pure ethanol e100. Anhydrousethanol, that is, ethanol with at most 1% water, can be blended with gasoline in varying quantities to reduce consumption of petroleum fuels and in attempts to reduce air pollution. Worldwide automotive ethanol capabilities vary widely and most spark-ignited gasoline style engines will operate well with mixtures of 10% ethanol (E10)

Ethanol is increasingly used as an oxygenate additive for standard gasoline, as a replacement for methyl t-buytle ether , the latter chemical being difficult to retrieve from groundwater and soil contamination. At a 10% mixture, ethanol reduces the likelihood of engine knock, by raising the octane rating. The use of 10% ethanol gasoline is mandated in some cities where the possibility of harmful levels of auto emissions are possible, especially during the winter months.ethanol can be used to powerfuel cells, and also as a feed chemical in the transesterification process for bio diesel .

In 2004, around 42 billion liters of ethanol were produced in the world, most of it being for use in cars. Brazil produced around 16.4 billion liters and used 2.7 million hectres of land area for this production (4.5% of the Brazilian land area used for crop production in 2005). Of this, around 12.4 billion liters were produced as fuel for ethanol-powered vehicles in the domestic market.

Ethanol is most commonly used to power automobiles, though it may be used to power other vehicles, such as tractors and airplanes. Ethanol (E100) consumption in an engine is approximately 34% higher than that of gasoline (the energy per volume unit is 34% lower). However, higher compression ratios in an ethanol-only engine allow for increased power output and better fuel economy than would be obtained with the lower compression ratio. In general, ethanol-powered engines are tuned to give similar power and torque output to gasoline-powered engines. In flexible fuel vehicles, the lower compression ratio requires tunings that give the same output when using either gasoline or hydrated ethanol. For maximum use of ethanol's benefits, a compression ratio of nearly 15:1 should be used, which would render that engine unsuitable for gasoline usage. When ethanol fuel availability increases to the point where high-compression ethanol-only vehicles are practical, the fuel efficiency of such engines should be the same or greater than current gasoline engines.
A 2004 MIT study, and paper published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, present the possibility of a definite advance over hybrid electric cars' cost-efficiency by using a high-output turbocharger in combination with continuous dual-fuel direct injection of pure alcohol and pure gasoline in any ratio up to 100% of either. Each fuel is stored separately, probably with a much smaller tank for alcohol, the peak cost-efficiency being calculated to occur at approximately 30% alcohol mix, at maximum engine power. The estimated cost advantage is calculated at 4.6:1 return on the cost of alcohol used, in gasoline costs saved, when the alcohol is used primarily as an octane modifier and is otherwise conserved. With the cost of new equipment factored in the data gives a 3:1 improvement in payback over hybrid, and 4:1 over turbo-diesel (comparing consumer investment yield only). In addition, the danger of water absorption into pre-mixed gasoline and supply issues of multiple mix ratios can be addressed by this system.

3.
AIR POWERED CAR
this is already implied on a car it uses compressed air to run the engine right now the compressed air is stored i the car but according to the company soon they would have the generator on the car thereby no need of refilling the car and you could take it any ware as long as there is air.

How it works - The World´s Cleanest Car.

4.
ELECTRIC

A battery electric vehicle (BEV) is an electric vehicle (e.v) that utilizes chemical energy stored in rechargeable battery packs. Electric vehicles use electric motors and motor controllers instead of i.c engine. Vehicles using both electric motors and ICEs are examples of hybrid vehicle , and are not considered pure BEVs because they operate in a charge sustaining mode. Hybrid vehicles with batteries that can be charged externally to displace some or all of their ICE power and gasoline fuel are called plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV), and are pure BEVs during their charge depleting mode. BEVs are usually automobiles like bikes,cars,golf carts,fork lifts etc.. and similar vehicles, because batteries are less appropriate for larger long-range applications.
BEVs were among the earliest automobiles, and are more energy efficient than internal combustion, fuel cell, and most other types of vehicles. BEVs produce no exhaust fumes, and minimal pollution if charged from most forms of renewable . Many are capable of acceleration exceeding that of conventional vehicles, are quiet, and do not produce noxious fumes. BEVs reduce dependence on petroleum , thus enhancing national security, and mitigate global warming by alleviating the green house effect.
Historically, BEVs and PHEVs have had issues with high battery costs, limited travel distance between battery recharging, charging time, and battery lifespan, which have limited widespread adoption. Ongoing battery technology advancements have addressed many of these problems; many models have recently been prototyped, and a handful of future production models have been announced. Toyota, Honda, Ford and General Motors all produced BEVs in the 90s in order to comply with the california air resources board's Zero Emission Vehicle Mandate, which was later defeated by the manufacturers and the federal government. The major US automobile manufacturers have been accused of deliberately sabotaging their electric vehicle production efforts.



these cars where there in early 19 century the were lost making a comeback i the 80s-90s again lost and recently another comeback.




Running costs
Some running costs are significantly less for BEVs than for conventional cars. In particular, fuel costs are very low due to the competitive price of electricity - fuel duty is zero-rated - and to the high efficiency of the vehicles themselves. Taking into account the high fuel economy of battery electric cars, the fuel costs can be as low as 1.0-2.5p per mile (depending on the tariff). For a typical annual mileage of around 10,000 miles per year, switching from a conventional car to a battery electric could save you around £800 in fuel costs. However if the battery hire is considered a running cost, then the saving on fuel is canceled out by the monthly battery leasing cost.



Acceleration performance
Relatively few of today's BEVs are capable of acceleration performance which exceeds that of equivalent-class conventional gasoline powered vehicles. An early solution was American motors experimental amitron piggyback system of batteries with one type designed for sustained speeds while a different set boosted acceleration when needed.
Electric vehicles can utilize a direct motor-to-wheel configuration which increases the amount of available power. Having multiple motors connected directly to the wheels allows for each of the wheels to be used for both propulsion and as braking systems, thereby increasing traction. In some cases, the motor can be housed directly in the wheel, such as in the whispering wheel design design, which lowers the vehicle's center of gravity and reduces the number of moving parts. When not fitted with an axle, diff, or transmission , electric vehicles have less drivetrain rotational inertia.
A gearless or single gear design in some BEVs eliminates the need for gear shifting, giving such vehicles both smoother acceleration and smoother braking. Because the torque of an electric motor is a function of current, not rotational speed, electric vehicles have a high torque over a larger range of speeds during acceleration, as compared to an internal combustion engine. As there is no delay in developing torque in an EV, EV drivers report generally high satisfaction with acceleration.
For example, the veturi fetish delivers super car acceleration despite a relatively modest 300 h.p, and a top speed of around 100 miles per hour. Some dc motor -equipped drag racer BEVs, have simple two-speed transmissions to improve top speed. Larger vehicles, such as electric trains and land speed record vehicles, overcome this speed barrier by dramatically increasing the wattage of their power system.
The Tesla roadster prototype can reach 60mph in 4 seconds.


Estimated Number of Battery Electric Vehicles in Use in the United States Year Number 1992 1,607
1993 1,690
1994 2,224
1995 2,860
1996 3,280
1997 4,453
1998 5,243
1999 6,964
2000 11,830
2001 17,847
2002 33,047
2003 45,656
2004 55,852
Growth rate 39.1%

Future

The future of battery electric vehicles depends primarily upon the cost and availability of batteries with high energy densities, power density, and long life, as all other aspects such as motors, motor controllers, and chargers are fairly mature and cost-competitive with internal combustion engine components. li-on, li-poly and zinc air batteries have demonstrated energy densities high enough to deliver range and recharge times comparable to conventional vehicles.
Bolloré a French automotive parts group developed a concept car the "Bluecar" using Lithium metal polymer batteries developed by a subsidiary Batscap. It had a range of 250km and top speed of 125km/h."blue car"
The cathodes of early 2007 lithium-ion batteries are made from lithium-cobalt metal oxide. This material is pricey, and can release oxygen if its cell is overcharged. If the cobalt is replaced with iron phosphates, the cells will not burn or release oxygen under any charge. The price premium for early 2007 hybrids is about US $5000, some $3000 of which is for their NiMH battery packs. At early 2007 gasoline and electricity prices, that would break even after six to ten years of operation. The hybrid premium could fall to $2000 in five years, with $1200 or more of that being cost of lithium-ion batteries, providing a three-year payback.

this was quite a long post.

wanted to see what your take is on this seeing that the earths petroleum is almost t its end.

my take on this:
1.hydrogen-good for the environment and even though we may feel as if its going to blow remember people said the same thing about petrol also.

2.ethanol- another replacement for petrol almost the immediate

3.air-amazing if it works out the car mdi costs about 15000 usd.

4.electric-would be the future.

all this was complied by me and main source being wikipedia.

[xinome]

hydrogen cars seems most likely to happen!
air cars are to slow, but who knows what the future holds in store.
and isn't ethanol already a fuel, its called the green fuel rite.

[nevertouchme]

Have we missed one more thing here? Bio- Diesel?

M & M is going to have Bio- Diesel variants by end of this year. I read this else where.

Cheers,
Jai

[xinome]

how did i forget that, isn't mercedes out with some of their so called green cars as well or was it some other company

[dinar]

Bio fuel are the most liking future fuels as the can run conventional engines.In country like India where farming is a major industry it is the way to go. Bio diesel is fantastic I tried my hands at using it in my car. The best part is Jetropa the plant whose fruits[seeds] are used in biodiesel can be grown in places where there is not water,so your getting double benefit, of getting land under cultivation [more jobs] and you can reduce your carbon foot print.
Hydrogen may be an alternative, if government is liberal in their policies towards small [new] companies with great ideas instead of forcing people to give up their ideas to big giants like govt owned companies and other big privet players in fuel industry.
The first electric car in India REVA should have had tax cuts, but no it did not, instead tax relief is given to new petroleum plants.
There have been successful attempts of extracting fuel from plastic by a professor in some part of Maharashtra [don't remember the place], but there has not been any move from government to help put up at least trail plants in other parts of the country.
As for ethanol in country like your where sugar itself is not enough for consumption and sugar cane prices controlled by the sugar mill owner it not going to be successful as more and more farmers are moving away from sugarcane farming, and the same case of big players controlling the fuel market comes in.

[Hellcat]

Brilliant post! I just saw the Future Cars episode in discovery last night; Future fuel is indeed very interesting subject. Great work Pawan!

There are varieties of biofuels, which is good, since they can power just about anything from a jet engine to a stove. I just hope a developed country like India would act ethically give importance to alternative fuels.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

. I just hope a developed country like India would act ethically give importance to alternative fuels.

OFFTOPIC: but when did india become devoloped?

[theMAG]

Nice poll, Pawan.

Fuel cells (hydrogen) seem to be the promising way forward for man's power requirements

[DirtyDan]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss alternate fuels and their ramifications, technical, political or whatever you think is important. Please give reasons for your answers and do not just name fuels.

All of you are aware of the recent increases in the prices of fuels. The rising price of oil, dwindling petroleum reserves, the volatile political situation in the Middle East and who knows what other factors loom and threaten to send us back to the days of real horse power and bullock carts. I can picture a time in the future when we, now old men, look at our rusting Pajeros and Accords sitting in our driveways with empty fuel tanks. Some maybe being used as flower planters, others being used as crawly spaces and curios for children.

No, this probably will not happen. Instead we will turn to another fuel or fuels. The question is, what will they be, why and what changes will this entail.

I will start it off. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. It makes a great fuel and can be used in present petrol engines and jet engines with little modification to them. Diesel engine usage might be a little harder. Hydrogen is easy to produce, you run low voltage through salt water, this separates the hydrogen out of the H2O and you store it and use it. You produce the electricity needed for production via solar cells. Hydrogen is non-poluting. The by-product of hydrogen combustion is distilled (pure) water. Hydrogen is no more dangerous to handle than gasoline. In fact because it is a light gas, when it explodes much of the energy goes up into the air whereas gasoline tends to stay on the ground and incinerate people near it.

International business has shied away from hydrogen. One reason is that it can not be easily monopolized.
Hydrogen usage at once removes much of the importance of the Middle East and makes these countries largely impotent in world politics and in the global economy.

Okay, let's hear what you Team-BHPers have to say.