Scorpio morning-start problem at high altitudes

anupmathur · 6th September 2007, 19:05

On my recent (2nd July to 17th July) trip to Ladakh, my new (9000 kms on the odo - 11 months) Scorpio 4WD gave good service but one problem I had was with the first start of the day AT ALTITUDES greater than 9000 ft. Every morning (5 total) at Leh, and at Sarchu, I had trouble starting the car - minimum 12 to 15 attempts required. I used short applications of the starter with at least 30 secs pause between attempts.
Once the car got past this morning routine it worked flawlessly through the day, even after being parked for up to 6 hours.
Temperature certainly does not seem to be the reason - the car started easily at Manali where in fact it was colder than at Leh. And right through Delhi winter it started at first self, with temps down to 5 or 6 degrees celsius.
I have a suspicion that the oxygen sensor might be the culprit.
Can anybody shed some light on this matter?
I have not yet approached the Service Centre. Through past experience, I feel I should be on 'top' of the problem before taking it up with them.
Could learned members please help.

tsk1979 · 7th September 2007, 01:27

Your ECU should advance the timing when oxygen content is low. To me it looks like a problem with the timing control mechanism.
At high altitude, the mixture is richer(more fuel less air) and you need to give the fuel more time to burn, so thats why timing is advanced.
You can follow that route.
I seriously doubt that Mahindra neglected this ECU thingy. So you may be right, the oxygen sensor is not telling the ECU that there is less air available.

anupmathur · 7th September 2007, 07:26

Thanks tsk1979.
The strange thing is that the problem only happened with the first start of the day - that's confusing me a bit, leading me to believe there is some other 'culprit' involved too. Temperatures were never lower than 18C at Leh, which is why I am ruling out 'cold' as a problem.
Will be going in for my 4th service soon, and will see what develops. Problem is I have no way of testing other than to go for another trip to high altitudes! Very welcome thought but to find a place 10,000 ft or more, and to spend a night there kind of rules out our regular haunts AND needs a longish break.
Thanks again for your help.

superbhikari · 22nd July 2009, 01:01

any update on the problem?

suman · 22nd July 2009, 10:00

This is a thread which is almost two years old. LOL

hvkumar · 22nd July 2009, 10:09

How did this problem get solved?

Sha · 22nd July 2009, 10:18

What Scorpio taxi drivers do is they park their vehicles against wind direction, seen in many camps keep changing direction of parking.

hvkumar · 22nd July 2009, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha

What Scorpio taxi drivers do is they park their vehicles against wind direction, seen in many camps keep changing direction of parking.

Absolutely, that is something I did with my Matiz too. Firstly, cover the front grill area with newspapers so that teh engine bay is insulated from the cold. Secondly, park the car as fas as possible in an enclosed area (between buildings) so that it is directly exposed to cold winds. While in Sarchu - night temperatures were below zero - I parked the car between the tents (surrounded on 3 sides by tents) - and hey presto, it started at second try at 6 am in the morning with the cold winds howling around. I have done this in the Scorpio (non-crde) too in Uttaranchal and Himachal with equally good results.In Kashmir, during winter, the Sumo taxis go around with a leather sweater covering the front grille.

The above solves the cold problem but not the oxygen problem which Anup and Tanveer have mentioned. I am planning to use a K&N filter to partly overcome this problem in my non-crde Scorpio during my Sep trip to Ladakh.

tsk1979 · 22nd July 2009, 10:27

K&N filter will let in more dust. So if you are driving in dusty conditions, its not advisable.
Even K&N filter website says "use shroud" when dusty.

hvkumar · 22nd July 2009, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979

K&N filter will let in more dust. So if you are driving in dusty conditions, its not advisable.
Even K&N filter website says "use shroud" when dusty.

Agreed. But, I am also fitting the "wraps" which K&N sells for protection against dust.

Sha · 22nd July 2009, 10:51

My Gypsy never gave starting problem in higher altidude it use to start in one crank. I use K&N Stock Filter no problem with dusts.

phamilyman · 22nd July 2009, 10:59

What time of day did you start?

Sha · 22nd July 2009, 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by phamilyman

What time of day did you start?

We used to leave between 6-7am. In sarchu we started our Gypsy at 7 am.

anupmathur · 22nd July 2009, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by hvkumar

How did this problem get solved?

Who said it is solved, LOL?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by suman

This is a thread which is almost two years old. LOL

Indeed! And the problem remains unaddressed!
I had similar starting problem at Kharapathar recently. Have been keeping Sri Durga advised. Will take the car to them if they have a likely sounding diagnosis. I am not at all keen to have things 'fingered' for them to stumble upon the problem by chance!

Why only the first start of the day?

suman · 22nd July 2009, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Indeed! And the problem remains unaddressed!
I had similar starting problem at Kharapathar recently.

You should check with Roshun & GD - I think there was a similar issue with Anil's Scorpio at Pangong. Looks like its some sensor or an ECU setting, not sure. As I mentioned on my Travelogue, a close friend of mine had the same problem in his Scorpio at Sarchu on the way up last year.

6th September 2007, 19:05	#1
anupmathur Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Delhi Posts: 3,095 Thanked: 307 Times	Scorpio morning-start problem at high altitudes On my recent (2nd July to 17th July) trip to Ladakh, my new (9000 kms on the odo - 11 months) Scorpio 4WD gave good service but one problem I had was with the first start of the day AT ALTITUDES greater than 9000 ft. Every morning (5 total) at Leh, and at Sarchu, I had trouble starting the car - minimum 12 to 15 attempts required. I used short applications of the starter with at least 30 secs pause between attempts. Once the car got past this morning routine it worked flawlessly through the day, even after being parked for up to 6 hours. Temperature certainly does not seem to be the reason - the car started easily at Manali where in fact it was colder than at Leh. And right through Delhi winter it started at first self, with temps down to 5 or 6 degrees celsius. I have a suspicion that the oxygen sensor might be the culprit. Can anybody shed some light on this matter? I have not yet approached the Service Centre. Through past experience, I feel I should be on 'top' of the problem before taking it up with them. Could learned members please help.
	() Thanks

7th September 2007, 01:27	#2
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	Your ECU should advance the timing when oxygen content is low. To me it looks like a problem with the timing control mechanism. At high altitude, the mixture is richer(more fuel less air) and you need to give the fuel more time to burn, so thats why timing is advanced. You can follow that route. I seriously doubt that Mahindra neglected this ECU thingy. So you may be right, the oxygen sensor is not telling the ECU that there is less air available.
	() Thanks

7th September 2007, 07:26	#3
anupmathur Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Delhi Posts: 3,095 Thanked: 307 Times	Thanks tsk1979. The strange thing is that the problem only happened with the first start of the day - that's confusing me a bit, leading me to believe there is some other 'culprit' involved too. Temperatures were never lower than 18C at Leh, which is why I am ruling out 'cold' as a problem. Will be going in for my 4th service soon, and will see what develops. Problem is I have no way of testing other than to go for another trip to high altitudes! Very welcome thought but to find a place 10,000 ft or more, and to spend a night there kind of rules out our regular haunts AND needs a longish break. Thanks again for your help.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 01:01	#4
superbhikari BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Muzaffarnagar Posts: 465 Thanked: 228 Times	any update on the problem?
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:00	#5
suman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kolkata Posts: 4,589 Thanked: 279 Times View My Garage	This is a thread which is almost two years old. LOL
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:09	#6
hvkumar Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 7,369 Thanked: 3,454 Times	How did this problem get solved?
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:18	#7
Sha BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Canberra Posts: 539 Thanked: 17 Times View My Garage	What Scorpio taxi drivers do is they park their vehicles against wind direction, seen in many camps keep changing direction of parking.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:27	#9
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	K&N filter will let in more dust. So if you are driving in dusty conditions, its not advisable. Even K&N filter website says "use shroud" when dusty.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:51	#11
Sha BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Canberra Posts: 539 Thanked: 17 Times View My Garage	My Gypsy never gave starting problem in higher altidude it use to start in one crank. I use K&N Stock Filter no problem with dusts.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:59	#12
phamilyman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 5,968 Thanked: 4,642 Times	What time of day did you start?
	() Thanks