[slyspree]

Hello! So I just had my 2015 City's steering rack repaired a few days back as it had developed some play causing a slight clunking noise and my mechanic suggested to get it repaired.

It cost me about 4k for the repair which involved opening up the rack and changing out the bush kit which had developed play for a new one and regreasing it to pack it up again.

When I got my car back, the sound was gone but I immediately noticed the steering was much tighter than before. Another thing that stood out was the stickiness of the steering wheel, in the sense that if I turn it slightly to the left or the right the wheel just stays in that position and doesn't seem to center itself like it used to.

It does however center itself when I take U-turns and give it some gas which gives me some relief but I definitely think the stickiness of the steering is cause for concern. I had notified my mechanic about this the same day I got my car back and he assured me saying as the bush kit has been replaced inside the rack there will be some friction and tightness initially which will free up as you use and drive the car. I don't know how true this is and wanted your opinions if anyone has gotten their car's rack repaired before and faced similar issues.

I regret getting the rack repaired. If I had known that the steering feel would get affected in this manner then I definitely would have lived with the play/sounds coming from the rack!

[freelancer6202]

Its always best to replace the entire rack. Repairing a rack is gamble. You dont want it giving out all of a sudden. I would still suggest getting it replaced by an experienced mechanic or honda service center. It could be a little expensive but it will be worth it.

[Jeroen]

I have worked and overhauled several steering boxes on quite a few cars. Depending on the box, I might have to rely on a steering box specialist.

Steering boxes are not that complex, but require special knowledge and tooling to overhaul properly, you need to be familiar, or have access to the workshop manual on exact specification on how to adjust the steering box properly.

Many mechanics, all over the world, will do it by feel and experience. In all cases a recipe for additional and quick wear.

You would be hard pressed to find a single Mercedes W123 without substantial play in the steering box. For no other reason everybody seems to believe it just needs an Allen key to adjust the play. The truth is you need to lift the front wheels of the ground and you need a very special torque wrench that can measure Ncm (that is Newton centimeters, not Newton meters) on the circumference of the steering wheel.

On my Alfa Spider, again you need the front wheels and you need to add A 12 kilogram weight to the pitman arm, whilst adjusting the play with shims. You need a special tool to be able to measure the play.

I can go on for all the cars I have owned and worked on over the years. You can find numerous jobs I did on steering boxes in my “fiddling with cars thread”.

You will also find the stories of steering boxes I replaced with officially overhauled boxes that did not work either (e.g.on my Jeep).

So again, working on Steering boxes, my opinion and experience, is a highly specialised area. Few car mechanics and workshops seem to recognize that. My experience is mostly in the western automotive world. I don’t want to offend anybody, but I strongly suspect it is not going to be any different in India. Probably worse!

The fact that your mechanic says your new bush will free up over time is a sure sign it hasn’t been adjusted correctly. And it will quickly wear and develop a lof of play. A correctly adjusted box will not require to be worn down.

Sorry to be blunt, but it looks this is a shoddy job, done by an incompetent mechanic.

Jeroen

[slyspree]

Man this makes me really upset! I thought it would be a quick and easy job as I had seen various posts of how people have got their racks repaired facing no issues.

I would have much rather preferred to just live with the play until it got real bad and replace the rack itself with a new one rather than live with this kind of feedback from the steering wheel for who knows how long until it supposedly "breaks in".

[AMG Power]

Most rack bush replacements by FNG’s in India usually result in the steering being tighter and the castor effect (steering self centering) missing for sometime. The push from the castor angle will not be sufficient at this stage for the steering self centering to happen.

The reason that they put in the tightness is the bush will last longer under Indian road conditions. I have had several replacements done and this is exactly how it will be.

With use on our bad roads the steering will break in and get back to its original slack and the castor effect will return. And with further use on our bad roads the noise will also return.

If the steering bush play is set to the OE position, the bush will go sooner because of our bad roads.

So just continue to use your car, be aware of the missing castor effect for sometime and you will be fine.

If this is a lot of inconvenience, the only option is to replace the entire rack which is not really required. Just use the car and the rack will return to its original slack with time.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by slyspree

..opening up the rack and changing out the bush kit which had developed play for a new one and regreasing it to pack it up again...

Usually steering racks are opened up because a user complains about the sound from the rack. Non OE bush kits which are used, is primarily used to arrest the sound because of the wear and tear. The effect of this is a slightly tight steering effort, which in turn requires more torque for returnability, hence the user feels a of lack of it.

[Raghu M]

I am not an expert sir but when I had a similar issue, my trusted mechanic told me to get it completely replaced. It was a good decision as the car ran for more than 60K after the rack replacement without any issues. I'd say, replacing the assembly would have been a better choice.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

The reason that they put in the tightness is the bush will last longer under Indian road conditions.

With use on our bad roads the steering will break in and get back to its original slack and the castor effect will return. And with further use on our bad roads the noise will also return.

If the steering bush play is set to the OE position, the bush will go sooner because of our bad roads.

So just continue to use your car, be aware of the missing castor effect for sometime and you will be fine.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Usually steering racks are opened up because a user complains about the sound from the rack. Non OE bush kits which are used, are primarily used to arrest the sound because of the wear and tear. The effect of this is a slightly tight steering effort, which in turn requires more torque for returnability, hence the user feels a of lack of it.

Guys, I really don't think it works that way at all. Please open up a couple of steering boxes and read through the car manufacturer's documentation. There is far more to play and noises in your steering box than a simple bush worn out.

Play in a steering box is nearly always caused by multiple components' wear down. The bush just being one of them.

The tightness of the box, and your steering feel if you like is highly dependent on how the box gets assembled and adjusted after overhaul. That is the tricky part as I explained before. With one part being too tight, it can not be adjusted correctly.

I can assure you that a part that is too tight initially will always wear down more quickly than a part with the correct tolerances and dimensions. Nothing to do with the state of Indian roads. It is the same anywhere not just on planet Earth, but in the entire universe. It's basic mechanical stuff we are discussing here. I have seen the same lame excuses on many other threads. Something is stiff, or something squeaks or rattles or makes a funny noise, after a repair and it will get better over time so we are told by the mechanic.

NO, it will always get worse over time. A bush that is supposed to provide a sliding action to a shaft will wear unevenly when its tolerances are incorrect. Too tight or too loose will have the same effect. Minimum wear (there is always wear) is achieved with the correct fitting of the bush and shaft. Anything else is simply wishful thinking.

Yes, there will be a period when the box feels fine. The problem is that with a too-tight box, it is impossible to adjust the box correctly! So once that bush wears down, the very delicate required play inside the various parts inside the box will be incorrect.

Please be aware that it is also possible for steering boxes to bind up completely, if not adjusted correctly. Some are more prone (e.g. Mercedes) than others. It is most likely to happen at full left or right lock. You don't want that to happen.

Your steering box is not just important for the way your car feels and drives, but it is a crucial part in the safe operations of your car. It's a highly precise piece of kit. It needs to be treated like that. No shortcuts.

Jeroen

[PreludeSH]

Thanks for this thread. My old 2011 Vento has this stickiness at high speeds when moving off the centre when correcting within lane. It works fine at lower speeds, turns etc.

I had asked the service centre guys and they said the rack needs to be replaced. They also opened it up during service to inspect and still came with same resolution. Its indeed pricey and I dont use that car a lot. So just waiting for some time to get it replaced later since its the steering and safety is paramount.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Guys, I really don't think it works that way at all. Please open up a couple of steering boxes and read through the car manufacturer's documentation. There is far more to play and noises in your steering box than a simple bush worn out.

Play in a steering box is nearly always caused by multiple components' wear down. The bush just being one of them.

The tightness of the box, and your steering feel if you like is highly dependent on how the box gets assembled and adjusted after overhaul. That is the tricky part as I explained before. With one part being too tight, it can not be adjusted correctly.
..

Jeroen, I'm not suggesting that a bush will solve the issue. I'm replying to the OP's original post that why his effort and returnability has changed.

My point being, usually its a shoddy job done focused only on the noise part of the rack. Not addressing the real issue, which is much more elaborate.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Play in a steering box is nearly always caused by multiple components' wear down.

Let’s get the facts right before suggesting a solution. This is NOT a steering box. This is a simple rack and pinion steering which is far less complex than a steering box.

Steering boxes have far more components, which makes them more complex and not really related to the problem mentioned by the OP.

Check out this link for the difference between rack and pinion and steering box:

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resource...fuel%20economy.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Let’s get the facts right before suggesting a solution. This is NOT a steering box. This is a simple rack and pinion steering which is far less complex than a steering box.

Steering boxes have far more components, which makes them more complex and not really related to the problem mentioned by the OP.
.

The internet will tell you the general difference between a steering box and a rack and pinion set up. But the truth is that there are quite a few variants of both as well. There are very simple steering boxes and quite complex rack and pinion steering set ups.

What remains the same for all is they require proper procedures for overhauling.

Irrespective, the mechanical laws remain the same for all types and variants. A bush with too tight a fitting is simply going to wear out unevenly, period!

Have the bush with too tight a fitting will interfere with the proper adjustment on most rack and pinion steering kit as well. On most rack and pinion steering there is at least a pinion set screw. This screw determines the internal play and the stiffness of the rack and pinion steering kit. Many mechanics will adjust it by hand and feel. Which in all cases I am familiar with is incorrect and will lead to additional wear and or excess play. Instead of a screw there might be shims or similar.

With the bush too tight this whole erroneous process of hand and feel is even more wonky. As the additional friction won’t allow you to feel what is really happening.

There is another reason why mechanics use too tight bushes. It hides the fact that they not overhauled the system properly. It hides the pinion adjustment screw set incorrectly! It also hides potential poor diagnoses of the root cause of the problem. E.g.play in any of the other steering system components. E.g. ball joints, steering damper, slave steering box and wheel bearings and so, whatever happens to be fitted.

You end up with steering, whatever, system, too tight and your mechanic telling it is tight on purpose and will get better over time, you have been had BIG time by a charlatan, or at least a mechanic doing shoddy work.

Feel free to think differently.

Jeroen

[jinojohnt]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sorry to be blunt, but it looks this is a shoddy job, done by an incompetent mechanic.

Thanks Jeroen for your useful insights. Replacing the whole steering rack is prohibitively more expensive than using a repair kit in most Indian cars. (Steering repair kit for A-Star is hardly 1K and not available, but the whole steering rack is around 8K for parts, just to give you a perspective). What do you think is the risk of improper installation, if we are replacing the whole set? Is it a fairly straight forward job and worth a try?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by jinojohnt

What do you think is the risk of improper installation, if we are replacing the whole set? Is it a fairly straight forward job and worth a try?

On the whole replacing it instead of overhauling it tends to be a lot simpler. In many cases properly overhauling a steering box or rack & pinion system might require it to be removed anyway.

On most cars I’m familiar with it should be a pretty straight forward process.

Most manufacturers, for steering component jobs, recommend replacing all bolts and nuts and not re-use the old ones. It is important that a torque wrench is used to tighten the bolts and nuts properly. Incorrect torquing can affect the alignment and thus play of the steering component.

Essentially a straightforward spanner job. If you have a hydraulic power steering system, most manufacturers recommend to have the front wheels lifted when refilling the system and moving the steering wheel left to right front lock multiple times to eliminate any air in the system.

Depending on the steering set up it might be a good idea to have a wheel alignment done afterwards. The new unit will never sit in the exact same position as the old one. So better safe than sorry
Just to add:

In case of a steering box the removal of the pitman arm is often the most difficult part and usually requires a special pitman arm puller. I have experienced cases where we needed to resort to hydraulic pullers.

Irrespective, with the steering box or rack removed secure the steering wheel. If you accidentally turn the steering wheel you are likely to snap the clock spring on your steering wheel (which means your horn, air bag and any other button on the steering wheel won’t work anymore!

Ask me how I know!

https://www.team-bhp.com/news/why-do...ng-one-my-jeep

Good luck

Jeroen

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The internet will tell you the general difference between a steering box and a rack and pinion set up. But the truth is that there are quite a few variants of both as well. There are very simple steering boxes and quite complex rack and pinion steering set ups.

This thread is put up by the OP to discuss a specific and very common problem with his rack and pinion steering. A discussion on the pros and cons of steering boxes vs rack and pinion steerings is best done separately on a thread intended for that purpose. For now, the solution suggested by you in the earlier post is not relevant to the problem faced by the OP.

The OP has an issue created by the tightness of his rack consequent to replacement of the bush inside the left side of the rack ( as this is a RHD car). This is a very normal situation and happens whenever the bush inside the rack is replaced. And this solution helps the bush last longer under Indian road conditions (read that as bad roads).

Originally Posted by Jeroen

What remains the same for all is they require proper procedures for overhauling.

This is a redundant statement here. Every procedure needs to be done properly.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Irrespective, the mechanical laws remain the same for all types and variants. A bush with too tight a fitting is simply going to wear out unevenly, period!

Again, a redundant statement. We are skirting the issue of rack and pinion being completely different from steering boxes by attempting to justify our error by bringing in the much broader (and of no use to solve the specific problem faced by the OP other than confusing him) mechanical laws behind steering systems.

All bushes wear out with time. Steering rack bushes by their design will wear out evenly because the bush is inside the rack tube (so there is no movement) and the rack moves inside the bush and a rack will not move unevenly unless there are be far more problems than that currently faced by the OP. Damage to the rack bush (on the left side) happens when the car hits a large pothole and the damping provided by the shocks / ball joints is not enough to isolate the pothole hit from the rack. This will happen whether it is an OE fitment as it happens to new cars too or an aftermarket job.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Have the bush with too tight a fitting will interfere with the proper adjustment on most rack and pinion steering kit as well.

There is no adjustment on the left side of a rack and pinion steering system. (remember this is a RHD car). And because this is a rack and pinion, either it works or it doesn’t - there is no adjustment to be done on the left side where the bush has been replaced.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

On most rack and pinion steering there is at least a pinion set screw.

That is on the RIGHT side under the pinion and is best left untouched. This screw is usually tightened when the the pinion is worn - again this tightening is done to reduce the play under the pinion and is can only be a stop gap arrangement. When there is a need to adjust this screw, it is an indication that the pinion is on the way out and In course of time, the pinion (and rack) will have to be replaced.

This screw determines the internal play and the stiffness of the rack and pinion steering kit. Many mechanics will adjust it by hand and feel. Which in all cases I am familiar with is incorrect and will lead to additional wear and or excess play.

As I’ve mentioned above, an adjustment of this screw is done only when the pinion is worn and is a stop gap arrangement till the replacement is eventually done.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Instead of a screw there might be shims or similar.

There are no shims near or under the pinion. There are shims on the left side of the rack where, in the current case, the bush has been replaced. Sometimes, additional shims are placed here.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

There is another reason why mechanics use too tight bushes. It hides the fact that they not overhauled the system properly. It hides the pinion adjustment screw set incorrectly!

Wrong. Firstly there is only one bush and this bush is affixed inside the rack tube on the LEFT side. The pinion adjustment screw is on the RIGHT side and can only reduce the play between the pinion and the rack and not the noise that emanates from the left side. (which is the problem faced by the OP).

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It also hides potential poor diagnoses of the root cause of the problem. E.g.play in any of the other steering system components. E.g. ball joints, steering damper, slave steering box and wheel bearings and so, whatever happens to be fitted.

Wrong again. A tight steering rack bush WILL NOT hide problems with the ball joints and wheel bearings. Play in the ball joints and wheel bearings will be immediately apparent on driving the car. Slave steering boxes are not relevant here as the OP’s car does not have one.

To isolate a noise as that coming from the steering rack, one would have eliminated the noises and plays from the ball joints and tie rods before attempting to open the steering rack.

Remember in the case of the OP, THERE IS NO NOISE, only tightness and lack of castor return. So we are digressing.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You end up with steering, whatever, system, too tight and your mechanic telling it is tight on purpose and will get better over time, you have been had BIG time by a charlatan, or at least a mechanic doing shoddy work.

This is the problem with discussions on the internet and conclusions drawn without a full understanding or experience in the matter. We have gone from suggesting solutions for steering boxes instead of rack and pinions to mechanical laws behind steering systems to justify the wrong suggestion made instead of suggesting the right solution to the problem faced by the OP.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Feel free to think differently.

Sure. Let us not further mislead / confuse the OP on his rather simple problem.