[TorqueConverted]

Hello all!

I did a search on this subject and couldn't find too many mentions here in the forum, so I'm creating this thread. If the issue is already discussed elsewhere, my apologies in advance, and please feel free to delete this thread!

I'm an owner of an older car (2004 Toyota Corolla; not really Classic or Vintage, however I think the issue is likely to be shared across this category) and it seems that the fuel filter is repeatedly getting clogged up. My sense is this is because of the car sitting for periods of time, and the ethanol mixed fuel (20% now, set to go up to 30% if I'm not mistaken) that is now available causing increased rusting of the insides of the tank, leading to the rust clogging up the filter.

I suspect this is likely to be an issue with all older cars not designed for ethanol mixed fuel, along with deteriorations further in the fuel system for the same or similar reasons. My question is, has anybody been able to come up with a sustainable solution to this problem? Here is what I've been able to think of so far:

1) The most obvious option seems to be using one of the available 'Fuel Tank Sealer' products, with POR 15 being the most readily available. For a tank of the Corolla's size, I think 16 ounces will be required, which comes to just short of Rs. 10k. However, that's just the sealer. Adding the other prep products to the mix takes the total expenditure for the kit closer to Rs. 35k. Added to this would be the labour to clean the tank to the required standard, and properly apply the product. There's also mixed reviews on the internet about how over time, these products deteriorate and then do a similar number on the fuel system as the rust itself. I don't know how long in the future to place the horizon, but that may or may not be a concern with this car. Not 100% on this option, but if anyone has tried it and seen results, please do reply!

2) I had an out of the box idea, which was to get the tank cleaned and then electroplate the entire tank with Nickel Chrome. Theoretically, this ought to significantly improve the corrosion resistance of the tank, and ought not to be too expensive. Finding a vendor to do this doesn't seem to be easy though, as the few I've spoken to only do small items, and don't have the capacity for a 50l fuel tank.

3) The last option seems to be simply to lump it, and keep changing fuel filters, and eventually the tank itself when it becomes useless. This might make economic sense, however it's unsettling to drive the car knowing that this (rusting-clogging) process is ongoing at all times!

In general, I think this is likely to be an issue for all older cars, so if some durable solution could be figured out, maybe that would be a value for the community as a whole? Do let me know your thoughts, and I look forward to reading them!

[F10D_Estilo]

1) As per my knowledge, the fuel currently been offered is mixed with 10% Ethanol and not 20% Ethanol. E20 is served separately using a separate nozzle in select fuel pumps. 10% Ethanol doesn't cause much harm to older cars. I myself own a 2008 BS3 Zen Estilo, which is not used much. Never have I had a clogged fuel filter. So I think the issue with your car is probably not the fuel. I am suspecting some kind of water entry into the fuel tank, because of which it's getting rusted. I would suggest you to get your fuel tank removed, cleaned and inspected thoroughly, as rust clogging the fuel filter can cause your fuel pump to burn out.

2) If we are only served with E20 or higher in the future, this can damage the entire fuel system rather than just the tank. Everything from the injectors to the fuel pump can wear out quicker than normal. So, I hope someone comes up with an additive to keep our older machines running.

[sankar009]

Originally Posted by F10D_Estilo

2) If we are only served with E20 or higher in the future, this can damage the entire fuel system rather than just the tank. Everything from the injectors to the fuel pump can wear out quicker than normal. So, I hope someone comes up with an additive to keep our older machines running.

Is premium petrol Like XP100 having ethanol? Somebody said it doesnt.So using it will solve the issue

[TorqueConverted]

Originally Posted by F10D_Estilo

1) As per my knowledge, the fuel currently been offered is mixed with 10% Ethanol and not 20% Ethanol. E20 is served separately using a separate nozzle in select fuel pumps. 10% Ethanol doesn't cause much harm to older cars. I myself own a 2008 BS3 Zen Estilo, which is not used much. Never have I had a clogged fuel filter. So I think the issue with your car is probably not the fuel. I am suspecting some kind of water entry into the fuel tank, because of which it's getting rusted. I would suggest you to get your fuel tank removed, cleaned and inspected thoroughly, as rust clogging the fuel filter can cause your fuel pump to burn out.

2) If we are only served with E20 or higher in the future, this can damage the entire fuel system rather than just the tank. Everything from the injectors to the fuel pump can wear out quicker than normal. So, I hope someone comes up with an additive to keep our older machines running.

Oh, ok! This is very good to know! The car had been relatively idle for some time, so maybe even the little moisture from the E10 fuel might have built up and started to cause a problem. This is also the second time this is happening in a few years. The car was given to Toyota ASC when I was out of the country with instructions to clean the fuel tank; I think they did that, but maybe the job wasn't as thorough as it ought to have been. My last experience with them was also not up to scratch.

Will have the tank removed and inspected, etc. Have already ordered a new fuel filter; hopefully the pump hasn't been too badly damaged by running with the clogged filter 🤞🏽 Thanks again for the reply!

[sagarpadaki]

With many lakh cars on road that were designed to run on 100% pure petrol, do we have any empirical data on how many have been affected by ethanol blended fuel? Because we are worried about the impact of ethanol blended fuel however, I have not come across large scale degradation of fuel system in the cars /bikes on the road.

I asked my mechanic who runs an FNG if he is receiving complaints about fuel system in older cars due to ethanol fuel but there is no such pattern. My Tiago is 2018 model when there was no ethanol blending norm. And I am not facing any issue apart from a 1kmpl drop in FE over the years which I attribute to the ethanol blending. Are we overthinking the ethanol blend impact on older cars?

[TorqueConverted]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

With many lakh cars on road that were designed to run on 100% pure petrol, do we have any empirical data on how many have been affected by ethanol blended fuel? Because we are worried about the impact of ethanol blended fuel however, I have not come across large scale degradation of fuel system in the cars /bikes on the road.

I asked my mechanic who runs an FNG if he is receiving complaints about fuel system in older cars due to ethanol fuel but there is no such pattern. My Tiago is 2018 model when there was no ethanol blending norm. And I am not facing any issue apart from a 1kmpl drop in FE over the years which I attribute to the ethanol blending. Are we overthinking the ethanol blend impact on older cars?

Quite possibly! Though, I think that cars of a more recent vintage (such as even 2018) might have already been engineered looking ahead to Ethanol fuel adoption. I think Toyota has stated that any of their cars from the last 10 years are compatible with upto E20 fuel; Honda apparently started making their cars E20 compatible all the way back in 2009. It's mainly cars older than that where I think problems can start, but that would also depend on usage, climate, etc., I guess.

In any case, I will take my Corolla to an FNG and ask for a thorough inspection of the fuel tank and pump and see what comes up. 🤞🏽

[Roy.S]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

...Are we overthinking the ethanol blend impact on older cars?

I think we are.
My '07 Swift seems to be completely unaffected.
My 15 yr old Classic 500 which I rarely ride these days hasn't shown any signs of rusting inside the tank. The fuel injection system works just fine too. I was a bit worried about that because I've let fuel stagnate in there for weeks before I remembered to start it.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by TorqueConverted

In any case, I will take my Corolla to an FNG and ask for a thorough inspection of the fuel tank and pump and see what comes up. 🤞🏽

Please keep us updated on the findings.

Originally Posted by Roy.S

I think we are.
My '07 Swift seems to be completely unaffected.
My 15 yr old Classic 500 which I rarely ride these days hasn't shown any signs of rusting inside the tank. The fuel injection system works just fine too. I was a bit worried about that because I've let fuel stagnate in there for weeks before I remembered to start it.

Good to hear that. My 2008 Pulsar or 2014 Wego also does not show any degradation in the fuel lines or carb. The power delivery has gone down . I do not know whether to attribute it to the age or the ethanol blending.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Are we overthinking the ethanol blend impact on older cars?

Absolutely not. A 1kmpl drop in mileage represents an over 5% loss in efficiency. Our engines are developed with very strict tolerances in mind. Sure you might think that 1kmpl loss of mileage is not so bad but the overall implications are quite severe. There is more vibration and harshness in older engines running with ethanol and I’m sure there is also a slight drop in power as a result. Also since they weren’t designed to run on ethanol blended fuel, they pollute a whole lot more on e10 offsetting any environmental benefits we hope we might be getting by blending ethanol. There is a reason why in European countries the pump has to have pure petrol available along with ethanol blended varieties and each must be clearly labelled. Here in India where we don’t even care about valve clearances or whether everything is torqued to spec, all we care about is money and a chaltha hai attitude we are oblivious to the severe cumulative environmental impact and wear on our beloved machines

Tomorrow if your car breaks down you will think it’s okay it was old anyway and did 3lac kms however these things are engineered for a whole lot more if they run on the correct fluids. There’s no way to overstate the impact that ethanol blending is causing. By the time everyone catches up to what’s going on, it might just be too late.

[himanshu_trikha]

Originally Posted by sankar009

Is premium petrol Like XP100 having ethanol? Somebody said it doesnt.So using it will solve the issue

Almost all the gasoline fuel blends below 115 RON shall have ethanol these days.

Ethanol is hygroscopic so water retention in fuel tank is a problem and even more if you drive sparingly and order a Tank full each time you visit the bunks.But the problem doesn’t end here ,combustion produces acid that can be a bigger problem for the engine.

The cars/bikes designed and manufactured 2 decades back may still continue to run on Blended Gasoline for kilometre before the signs show up.The Immediate effect can be drop in power/torque which can be handled by fuel/air ratio in carbureted engine to some extent.

Best solution, Any gasoline available without ethanol ,though I highly doubt it.

Why do we need to bear it , have a chat with any NCR fellow who had to let go his diesel car the day 10 years ruling came without a warning !

[Jeroen]

When in doubt about which fuel and ethanol content your car can handle: check the owner manual!

Owning six classic cars I have some experience with different ethanol.
Rule of thumb, the older your car the less ethanol it can handle.

When E5 fuels were introduced problems startet to occur with pre-war classics. Not always. Part of the complexity is E5 has a maximum of 5% in Europe, not a minimum. In fact many current premium E5 fuels have zero ethanol! All my classic cars run on 98E5 without ethanol. They don't need the 98, but almost all E5 sold without methanol is 98.

When E10 was introduced in Europe it also came with a mandated minimum methanol content. Around 8, 5-9% or thereabouts. In Europe all manufacturers were obliged to publish data on suitability of their car engines for E10. So there are still simple websites around, you plug in your car registration and it will show the car manufacturing recommendation.

Although not hundred percent, but most likely anything built after 2000-2005 is likely to run fine on E10.

Its not just rusting that can be a problem. On older cars, rubbers and gaskets can be affected too. Somewhere in my “fiddling with cars thread” I have written about a workshop I attended some years ago. It was about fuel pumps and associated fuel, system parts. They brought a whole collection of fuel system parts affected by E10. Clogged filters, stuck pumps, pressure regulators, tanks and so on.

We have also seen all kinds of problems with car that are supposed to be E10 compliant. My Jaguar XJR (x308) and also earlier (X300) and later versions (X350) definitely have more problems when you run them on E10. Noticeably you will get CEL indication for no apparent reason.

My trusted Jaguar specialist Raymond had a bunch of his customers run their Jags on E10 and others on E5. All but one got CEL on E10 fuel. Nobody got a CEL running on E5.

So the high ethanol content also messes with your ignition and or injection system most likely.

When in doubt, best check your ownermanual, if it doesn't state E10 or higher you are likely to encounter some problems.

The amount of use a car gets, does affect the problems too. Constant, daily useage are likely to minimise any potential problems of course.

Part of the problem with these high ethanol content fuels on classic cars is the fact that classic cars tend to be used only now and then.

Jeroen

[TorqueConverted]

Out of curiosity, has anyone considered electroplating (Nickel Chrome) their fuel system components? To a non-technical person like myself, that seems like a potentially useful solution, if it can bring about long term corrosion resistance. I've seen a few Youtube videos where it's been done to car fuel system components (other than the tank), and bike tanks.

[Babu R]

I spent some time recently on this topic.

I had checked with about 8-9 fuel pumps across IOCL, BPCL and Shell in Chennai. I checked with the fuel pump attendants and the managers/officers at the pumps in all these places. All of them at IOCL and BPCL told me that what we get is E20. There is no pump that dispenses E10. The person at Shell told me that they get E12. All of them also confirmed that they are not logistically ready to have E10 and E20 simultaneously as the fuel sumps have to be separate. They are not aware of what issues can arise on vehicles that are E10 only compatible.

I checked with 3 Toyota and 1 VW service stations. None of them are aware of what the issues could be except there might be a mileage drop. I specifically asked them about warranties. One Toyota guy said you can use nothing will happen. But the others are yet to revert even after multiple follow ups. My sense is that they would not revert as Toyota and VW manuals clearly state that warranties will be void. Even VW is selling the latest Tiguan R line with only E10 compatibility.

I looked up Niti Aayog's report of June 2021 issuing a road map for Ethanol blending for 2020-25, where they have stated that on an average 6% reduction in fuel is expected overall (there are separate reductions given for 2W and 4W). It has also been mentioned that the vehicles will face issues in the long run. A letter from SIAM dt 28th December 2020 is also appended to this report. SIAM strongly had recommended that E10 be made available along with E20 for few years further stating that it is the global practice.

At present, only E20 is available in Chennai. I am not sure about other places. There are few threads in our own community where they have discussed this topic but they may be a bit dated. I also recollect that a fellow bhpian by name Fiero had applied for a RTI and shared the first level responses elsewhere in our forum. But as of now E20 is here to stay.Would be great to know if there are some updates on this especially if at some point of time E10 will be made available.

[TorqueConverted]

Originally Posted by Babu R

I spent some time recently on this topic.

Thank you, this is very helpful. At present it seems more likely that we will get E30, as per the recent announcements from the Govt, than E10. I wonder, if this is the direction we are heading in, perhaps it might be a good idea to consider installing flex fuel kits in cars that we intend to keep for the long run, especially older ones? However in what little research I've done these kits only solve part of the problem, as they leave things like fuel tanks (part of the reason for this thread) and injectors untouched, and these might not be safe/reliable to use with higher ethanol mixtures.