Rough idle and exhaust note not smooth - Please help me!

ece2k2 · 5th January 2008, 22:47

Guys,

This rough idle issue has been in my fiat siena 1.6 for the last 5 months and it has been really irritating with the roughness (light constant shaking during idling) coming into the passenger cabin. The exhaust is also not smooth when idling and its note is pretty rough like misfiring. This issue started when I gave my vehicle for service (for a different issue) at Prerana motors. When I reported this issue to the Prerana Motors service person during the vehicle delivery, I was told that the issue may be because of carbon buildup. They tried the following for fixing this up (for a bill of Rs.4000+):

1. Ignition coil
2. Spark plugs
3. Engine De carb
4. Engine diagnostics - no errors

At that point I could understand that they were taking me for a ride and got the car back. After all the trials, Prerana mechanics even tried convincing me that the car is idling fine, when I could feel the roughness very well ...

Three weeks back, I detected that the fuel filter has got damaged (petrol leaking) and replaced the fuel filter.

When I left my car for service at Manipal Motors last week, I was told that the culprit for rough idle may be Oxygen (lambda) sensor. Shivram (Manipal motors service advisor) told me that the lambda sensor need to be ordered from Fiat and it may take a few days for him to get it.

I have tried myself the following stuff:
1. Drove the car till the fuel tank became empty and refuelled at a couple other places. Just to make sure that the issue is not because of bad fuel quality
2. Added Bardahl injector kleen

Both the above did not really work. When I switch on the a/c the roughness reduces a little. I also felt that the engine is missing a beat at times when I accelerate - may be a related issue???

Pollution check did not give any extreme results (slightly higher pollution level as compared to last time) but the pollution is still under control. The mileage also has not dropped drastically. From my searching the internet, I saw that the Oxygen sensor failure will cause the pollution check to fail and worst fuel efficiency. Since these are not there, I am really doubtful if I need to replace lambda sensor.

I do not want to go through another iteration of "trial and error" by service center. Please give your expert guidance to fix this up.

Thanks.

- Karthik.

Vishesh · 5th January 2008, 23:10

hey there, mine is an SX4, june 2007 model, ever since i bought it i feel that the overall feel of the engine, ie, the roar of the engine (both at idle as well as under acceleration) is quite rough and the car overall is pretty 'old diesel like rough' to drive. Both the mileage and the pickup are bad.

i tried showing this problem to a few M.A.S.S in delhi, but to no avail, they always discard it saying that's its just my 'vehem' (incorrect mental feeling)..so i went ahead and taook a test drive in one of the Demo cars in a south delhi maruti showroom..and voila ! The car, despite being a neglected and badly abused test drive vehicle..was running very very smooth with greater pickup. Its acceleration, idle etc everything was so damn smooth !

Somebody has advised me to stop using premium fuels and get the car checked at the Maruti owned Sales and Service at naraina..its got its own team of very well trained engineers appointed by Maruti Udyog India. LEts wait and watch ! Would appreciate your views ! Thanks !

PAVAN KADAM · 5th January 2008, 23:12

Hi, Here are my few inputs.

I had noticed a similar pattern in one Cielo, the problem was with the Spark plug cable which had a leak and also at times a cracked distributor cap.

U frm Bengaluru, wait till my mech is back in town, He smells the problem imdtly.

Will update later, pm if help reqd.

ece2k2 · 5th January 2008, 23:17

i am ready to fix this up by all means Kadam. Please do keep me updated about your mech. Thanks!

By the way, mine is a 2002 manufactured car with 30k km on the odo

- karthik.

PAVAN KADAM · 5th January 2008, 23:46

Hey till then just do one manual check.

Remove the hood, start the car and leave it at idle and see weather you get kit kit kit noise.

If its the case, bro just let me know. Will forward you my mechs number on Wednesday, He's back in Bengaluru only on Wed.

humyum · 6th January 2008, 00:07

Why does this seem like one the spark plugs is not firing properly?Changing the spark plugs is fine but actually checking that they are getting the required current is another thing

ece2k2 · 6th January 2008, 10:37

Kadam/Humyum/Friends,

I tried capturing the video of the car rough idling today morning. I have uploaded them in youtube. I will be thankful if you guys could hear it once and give me your feedback.

Ticking noise captured from under the engine bay (Kadam sir, is this the one you were mentioning as kit kit noise???) :

YouTube - Siena 1.6 rough idle - ticking noise

Rough exhaust note - seems like the exhaust is coughing out the smoke:

YouTube - Siena 1.6 rough idle - exhaust note

Dashboard video when the vehicle is idling with RPM meter focussed:

YouTube - Siena 1.6 rough idle - tachometer and interior noise

Please check the sound from the video as the video is not very clear. I am sorry for not using a sound recorder and instead using a camera - audio recorder option would have made the file sizes smaller, but I do not have a exclusive sound recorder unfortunately.

Regards,
Karthik.

amit_mechengg · 6th January 2008, 12:18

i think u should ask those people to check the current distribution. ur spark plugs arent getting enough current at the right intervals. what i am trying to tell u is that its misfiring.Also get ur throttle body cleaned once if u have not done it.also ask them to fix the valve tappet settings.also check all the belt tensions.

gemithomas · 6th January 2008, 23:04

I think i see your rpm meter at 750 mark. SHouldnt this be at the 850 mark when in idle? cant make out if it is vibrating. And is your light also dimming (since you focused on it on your video).

I'm Not good with the technicalities. But these are the things i think you should check.

I think there is something like a EGR (somehting to do with gas recirculation) which if not functioning properly could lead to irregular idling. Check the EGR valve and any sensor for this purpose.

But that "tick tick" sound that is heard makes it look like something mechanical and not electrical. Anyways let wait for responses. HAve you posted this on the PUG/fiatclubindia. Guess you would get more specific user responses there

Please do let us know once it is solved.

callnishanth · 7th January 2008, 01:13

Im havin the same problem with my SWIFT VDi... Use only Shell Diesel... Switch off the headlights / AC and the car starts shaking for the variation in rpm... varies from 800 to 850 constantly during idling...

Is this some kinda electric or battery related problem???

ece2k2 · 7th January 2008, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemithomas

I think i see your rpm meter at 750 mark. SHouldnt this be at the 850 mark when in idle? cant make out if it is vibrating. And is your light also dimming (since you focused on it on your video).

I'm Not good with the technicalities. But these are the things i think you should check.

I think there is something like a EGR (somehting to do with gas recirculation) which if not functioning properly could lead to irregular idling. Check the EGR valve and any sensor for this purpose.

But that "tick tick" sound that is heard makes it look like something mechanical and not electrical. Anyways let wait for responses. HAve you posted this on the PUG/fiatclubindia. Guess you would get more specific user responses there

Please do let us know once it is solved.

Hi Gemi,

Both Prerana and Manipal Motors guys hooked up the ECU diagnostic monitor and said that there is no error. Prerana guy specifically checked for the idle RPM through the monitor and verified for the correctness of it. Another thing is that the Prerana mechanic told me that the EGR valve is not present in Fiat 1.6 engine - not sure if this is true ? Yeah, you are correct - I focussed on the interior light to show that there was the momentary dimming in the cabin light when the engine was rough idling, which did not come up well in the video clip.

I am planning to post this in the Indian PUG soon.

Regards,
Karthik.

gemithomas · 7th January 2008, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ece2k2

Hi Gemi,

Both Prerana and Manipal Motors guys hooked up the ECU diagnostic monitor and said that there is no error. Prerana guy specifically checked for the idle RPM through the monitor and verified for the correctness of it. Another thing is that the Prerana mechanic told me that the EGR valve is not present in Fiat 1.6 engine - not sure if this is true ? Yeah, you are correct - I focussed on the interior light to show that there was the momentary dimming in the cabin light when the engine was rough idling, which did not come up well in the video clip.

I am planning to post this in the Indian PUG soon.

Regards,
Karthik.

Just a thought. Have you checked the alternator. Maybe its sending varying current all over!!

But its that sound that gives me a feeling of some mechanical problem. There is a bearing for the timing belt. Get that checked too. Hope you get it solved ASAP. It feels so frustrating when the mechanics are unable to even identify the correct problem.

gemithomas · 7th January 2008, 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by callnishanth

Im havin the same problem with my SWIFT VDi... Use only Shell Diesel... Switch off the headlights / AC and the car starts shaking for the variation in rpm... varies from 800 to 850 constantly during idling...

Is this some kinda electric or battery related problem???

What about when the a/c and lights are on. Does it idle normally in such a case. I've heard of it the pother way round but not something like this. I think there is thread on an alto which used to behave like this when the headlights were switched on.

sgiitk · 7th January 2008, 09:54

By the looks of it it may be an intermittent link in the HT lead. These are a pain to diagnose and very easy to fix. One option will be to (at least temporarily) replace the HT cables.

One way to check out will be remove HT leads one by one. Removing a good lead will make the idle rougher, while the bad one should make no or marginal difference.

I will be watching this thread.

humyum · 7th January 2008, 10:00

A definate definate misfire.Yeah as sgiitk said remove one wire at a time and see.THe one which makes hardly any difference is the defective wire.

5th January 2008, 22:47	#1
ece2k2 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 524 Thanked: 349 Times	Rough idle and exhaust note not smooth - Please help me! Guys, This rough idle issue has been in my fiat siena 1.6 for the last 5 months and it has been really irritating with the roughness (light constant shaking during idling) coming into the passenger cabin. The exhaust is also not smooth when idling and its note is pretty rough like misfiring. This issue started when I gave my vehicle for service (for a different issue) at Prerana motors. When I reported this issue to the Prerana Motors service person during the vehicle delivery, I was told that the issue may be because of carbon buildup. They tried the following for fixing this up (for a bill of Rs.4000+): 1. Ignition coil 2. Spark plugs 3. Engine De carb 4. Engine diagnostics - no errors At that point I could understand that they were taking me for a ride and got the car back. After all the trials, Prerana mechanics even tried convincing me that the car is idling fine, when I could feel the roughness very well ... Three weeks back, I detected that the fuel filter has got damaged (petrol leaking) and replaced the fuel filter. When I left my car for service at Manipal Motors last week, I was told that the culprit for rough idle may be Oxygen (lambda) sensor. Shivram (Manipal motors service advisor) told me that the lambda sensor need to be ordered from Fiat and it may take a few days for him to get it. I have tried myself the following stuff: 1. Drove the car till the fuel tank became empty and refuelled at a couple other places. Just to make sure that the issue is not because of bad fuel quality 2. Added Bardahl injector kleen Both the above did not really work. When I switch on the a/c the roughness reduces a little. I also felt that the engine is missing a beat at times when I accelerate - may be a related issue??? Pollution check did not give any extreme results (slightly higher pollution level as compared to last time) but the pollution is still under control. The mileage also has not dropped drastically. From my searching the internet, I saw that the Oxygen sensor failure will cause the pollution check to fail and worst fuel efficiency. Since these are not there, I am really doubtful if I need to replace lambda sensor. I do not want to go through another iteration of "trial and error" by service center. Please give your expert guidance to fix this up. Thanks. - Karthik.
	() Thanks

5th January 2008, 23:10	#2
Vishesh BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: New Delhi Posts: 96 Thanked: 27 Times	Same Problem -SX4 hey there, mine is an SX4, june 2007 model, ever since i bought it i feel that the overall feel of the engine, ie, the roar of the engine (both at idle as well as under acceleration) is quite rough and the car overall is pretty 'old diesel like rough' to drive. Both the mileage and the pickup are bad. i tried showing this problem to a few M.A.S.S in delhi, but to no avail, they always discard it saying that's its just my 'vehem' (incorrect mental feeling)..so i went ahead and taook a test drive in one of the Demo cars in a south delhi maruti showroom..and voila ! The car, despite being a neglected and badly abused test drive vehicle..was running very very smooth with greater pickup. Its acceleration, idle etc everything was so damn smooth ! Somebody has advised me to stop using premium fuels and get the car checked at the Maruti owned Sales and Service at naraina..its got its own team of very well trained engineers appointed by Maruti Udyog India. LEts wait and watch ! Would appreciate your views ! Thanks !
	() Thanks

5th January 2008, 23:12	#3
PAVAN KADAM BANNED Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NAMMA BENGALURU Posts: 5,602 Thanked: 2,549 Times	Hi, Here are my few inputs. I had noticed a similar pattern in one Cielo, the problem was with the Spark plug cable which had a leak and also at times a cracked distributor cap. U frm Bengaluru, wait till my mech is back in town, He smells the problem imdtly. Will update later, pm if help reqd.
	() Thanks

5th January 2008, 23:17	#4
ece2k2 BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 524 Thanked: 349 Times	i am ready to fix this up by all means Kadam. Please do keep me updated about your mech. Thanks! By the way, mine is a 2002 manufactured car with 30k km on the odo - karthik.
	() Thanks

5th January 2008, 23:46	#5
PAVAN KADAM BANNED Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NAMMA BENGALURU Posts: 5,602 Thanked: 2,549 Times	Hey till then just do one manual check. Remove the hood, start the car and leave it at idle and see weather you get kit kit kit noise. If its the case, bro just let me know. Will forward you my mechs number on Wednesday, He's back in Bengaluru only on Wed.
	() Thanks

6th January 2008, 00:07	#6
humyum Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,750 Thanked: 5,422 Times	Why does this seem like one the spark plugs is not firing properly?Changing the spark plugs is fine but actually checking that they are getting the required current is another thing
	() Thanks

6th January 2008, 12:18	#8
amit_mechengg Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 2,487 Thanked: 2,251 Times View My Garage	i think u should ask those people to check the current distribution. ur spark plugs arent getting enough current at the right intervals. what i am trying to tell u is that its misfiring.Also get ur throttle body cleaned once if u have not done it.also ask them to fix the valve tappet settings.also check all the belt tensions.
	() Thanks

6th January 2008, 23:04	#9
gemithomas Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Trivandrum Posts: 2,366 Thanked: 143 Times View My Garage	I think i see your rpm meter at 750 mark. SHouldnt this be at the 850 mark when in idle? cant make out if it is vibrating. And is your light also dimming (since you focused on it on your video). I'm Not good with the technicalities. But these are the things i think you should check. I think there is something like a EGR (somehting to do with gas recirculation) which if not functioning properly could lead to irregular idling. Check the EGR valve and any sensor for this purpose. But that "tick tick" sound that is heard makes it look like something mechanical and not electrical. Anyways let wait for responses. HAve you posted this on the PUG/fiatclubindia. Guess you would get more specific user responses there Please do let us know once it is solved.
	() Thanks

7th January 2008, 01:13	#10
callnishanth Newbie Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 9 Thanked: 19 Times	Im havin the same problem with my SWIFT VDi... Use only Shell Diesel... Switch off the headlights / AC and the car starts shaking for the variation in rpm... varies from 800 to 850 constantly during idling... Is this some kinda electric or battery related problem???
	() Thanks

7th January 2008, 09:54	#14
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	By the looks of it it may be an intermittent link in the HT lead. These are a pain to diagnose and very easy to fix. One option will be to (at least temporarily) replace the HT cables. One way to check out will be remove HT leads one by one. Removing a good lead will make the idle rougher, while the bad one should make no or marginal difference. I will be watching this thread.
	() Thanks

7th January 2008, 10:00	#15
humyum Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,750 Thanked: 5,422 Times	A definate definate misfire.Yeah as sgiitk said remove one wire at a time and see.THe one which makes hardly any difference is the defective wire.
	() Thanks