Pumpe-Duse diesel technology as against better known CRDi

abhibh · 14th May 2009, 17:51

VW uses CRD tech and they call it Clean TDi. But you will still see TDi badge on cars.

Audi uses Clean TDi

VeeTee · 14th May 2009, 18:38

Volkswagen introdued TDI in early 90s when the common rail development was still happening. TDI as the name suggests has a turbo delivering the air to the cylinder and diesel being directly injected into the cylinder through a pump or sometimes one pump/cylinder. TDI is a trademark of Volkswagen. Since about 2007, even Volkswagen has started moving to common rail technology

The main difference in CRDI is that the diesel is not directly injected into the cylinder from the pump. Instead, the diesel is pumped into a common rail and this delivers the fuel to the cylinder. The CRDI engines can also have turbos (most of the newer CRDI engines do have).

VeeTee · 14th May 2009, 18:55

"Multijet" and other CRDI engines have the same technology. Even the non-multijet engines can have upto 5 pulses per stroke. The number of pulses depend on the emission levels to be met. For example, to meet Euro V you if you have DPF, you need a very late injection (after TDC) to burn the carbon deposits in the DPF. So, I think that multijet is just another name like DiCOR, CRde, etc....

SirAlec · 14th May 2009, 22:32

after much confusion. here is what VW is doing. They were using PD and since begining of this year they have discontinued PD and started using common rail.

rider60 · 15th May 2009, 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamtheLeo

TDI - Turbocharged Direct Injection
CRDI - Common Rail Direct Injection

I belive it is not necessary for a CRDI to have a Turbo.

bang on, the logan we have is a crdi but minus a turbo.

sgiitk · 15th May 2009, 09:40

I may add that PD is not dead. It is popular in large diesels (trucks etc.). It is more economical, but the NVH is worse than in CR. VW being the only PD group in automobiles decided it was not worth the cost to pursue PD any further.

SamtheLeo · 15th May 2009, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by abhibh

VW uses CRD tech and they call it Clean TDi. But you will still see TDi badge on cars.

Audi uses Clean TDi

Thats because the name "CrDi" intself was patented by Hyundao (& Merc not sure!!) so only their cars can use it & rest all use different short form of it

eg Mahindra Scorpipo CrDe - Which is CrDi with "Electronics"

ShyamSCrdi · 5th October 2009, 16:00

Here is a question which i am not yet able to answer myself. What is the difference between TDI and PD TDI. I know PDs are unit injectors, what about TDI are they electronic or mechanical AFAIK there are no more mechanical injectors left. All you gurus please please clear this doubt i have.

(This doubt because i have heard that TDIs are different from PDs)
Shyam

ShyamSCrdi · 5th October 2009, 16:22

Another question. Is the audi R10 TDi common rail or something else.

Shyam

Torque-ative · 5th October 2009, 17:07

IDI - Indirect injection
DI - Direct Injection
TDI - Direct injection with forced induction
TDI - (with an added intercooler)
PD - Pumpe' Duse or high pressure Unit injector (pressure maintained in each unit injector)
CRDI - High pressure common rail injector (pressure maintained in a common rail and then injected)
CRDI,VGT - Same as above but with latest innovation in forced induction via a variable vane geometry turbo.

Would I be correct in the above sequencing of tech. and power delivery.

ShyamSCrdi · 6th October 2009, 11:21

Need more information can anyone please post links as to where to read up on this. As for my questions i have a few links which are related.

Audi R10 TDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the above link R10 is stated to be common rail employing an aluminium engine.

Another information audi calls its common rail engines as clean TDi.

Another piece of information CRDi with a turbo is also an induced DI(direct injection) diesel engine. Hence, can it be concluded that CRDi is also TDi?

Now another question :P are there any recent production cars sporting IDI engines?

Shyam

raj.barcode · 6th October 2009, 11:58

this is from the company website, Check the specs for R15
Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Le Mans

Specification of Audi R10

Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Customer sport R10 TDI

This should clear up the doubts, and not all web information is correct so one has to be discreet when browsing

ShyamSCrdi · 6th October 2009, 12:41

You may be right. But then there is confusion check out the link in the same audi website

Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Le Mans

Dont ask me how i got the link. I just clicked on something and lo this came up :P

Shyam

Sankar · 6th October 2009, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShyamSCrdi

Need more information can anyone please post links as to where to read up on this. As for my questions i have a few links which are related.

Audi R10 TDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the above link R10 is stated to be common rail employing an aluminium engine.

Another information audi calls its common rail engines as clean TDi.

Another piece of information CRDi with a turbo is also an induced DI(direct injection) diesel engine. Hence, can it be concluded that CRDi is also TDi?

Now another question :P are there any recent production cars sporting IDI engines?

Shyam

Don't confuse with these terminologies basically there are two types of diesel injection technique, Direct Injection (DI) and Indirect Injection (IDI). In a direct injection diesel the diesel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. In an Indirect injection engine diesel is injected into a precombustion chamber where the mixture will ignite first and then escapes into the main combustion chamber through small holes/passageways.

CrDI is a direct injection diesel engine aided by new technology involving higher injection pressures to make it economical, efficient and cleaner.

PD is also a direct injection diesel engine with new technology (but different from CRDI) involving higher injection pressures to make it efficient, economical and cleaner.

Afaik almost all CRDI and PD engines comes with a turbo. But don't confuse the turbo part with the basic injection technique used, which is DI. Some CRDI/PD uses a FGT and some a VGT, but a turbo is there.

Of the new gen cars iirc the Tata Indica V2 comes with an IDI engine.

aa_asif · 11th June 2010, 23:51

One doubt since the beginning of this thread:

PD - More mechanical and less or no electronic parts to control the fuel flow behavior.
CRDi - More electronics to control the fuel supply behavior.
In this case how come there's a remapping (Pete's kit) possible for a Skoda Octavia which comes with a PD engine?
Kindly correct where ever I've gone wrong...

14th May 2009, 17:51	#61
abhibh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Back in the HOOD near you! Posts: 2,768 Thanked: 39 Times	VW uses CRD tech and they call it Clean TDi. But you will still see TDi badge on cars. Audi uses Clean TDi
	() Thanks

14th May 2009, 18:38	#62
VeeTee BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chennai Posts: 44 Thanked: 17 Times	Volkswagen introdued TDI in early 90s when the common rail development was still happening. TDI as the name suggests has a turbo delivering the air to the cylinder and diesel being directly injected into the cylinder through a pump or sometimes one pump/cylinder. TDI is a trademark of Volkswagen. Since about 2007, even Volkswagen has started moving to common rail technology The main difference in CRDI is that the diesel is not directly injected into the cylinder from the pump. Instead, the diesel is pumped into a common rail and this delivers the fuel to the cylinder. The CRDI engines can also have turbos (most of the newer CRDI engines do have).
	() Thanks

14th May 2009, 18:55	#63
VeeTee BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chennai Posts: 44 Thanked: 17 Times	"Multijet" and other CRDI engines have the same technology. Even the non-multijet engines can have upto 5 pulses per stroke. The number of pulses depend on the emission levels to be met. For example, to meet Euro V you if you have DPF, you need a very late injection (after TDC) to burn the carbon deposits in the DPF. So, I think that multijet is just another name like DiCOR, CRde, etc....
	() Thanks

14th May 2009, 22:32	#64
SirAlec Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: zxc Posts: 3,393 Thanked: 726 Times	after much confusion. here is what VW is doing. They were using PD and since begining of this year they have discontinued PD and started using common rail.
	() Thanks

15th May 2009, 09:40	#66
sgiitk BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,969 Thanked: 4,788 Times	I may add that PD is not dead. It is popular in large diesels (trucks etc.). It is more economical, but the NVH is worse than in CR. VW being the only PD group in automobiles decided it was not worth the cost to pursue PD any further.
	() Thanks

5th October 2009, 16:00	#68
ShyamSCrdi BHPian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 344 Thanked: 2 Times	Here is a question which i am not yet able to answer myself. What is the difference between TDI and PD TDI. I know PDs are unit injectors, what about TDI are they electronic or mechanical AFAIK there are no more mechanical injectors left. All you gurus please please clear this doubt i have. (This doubt because i have heard that TDIs are different from PDs) Shyam Last edited by ShyamSCrdi : 5th October 2009 at 16:01.
	() Thanks

5th October 2009, 16:22	#69
ShyamSCrdi BHPian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 344 Thanked: 2 Times	Another question. Is the audi R10 TDi common rail or something else. Shyam
	() Thanks

5th October 2009, 17:07	#70
Torque-ative BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 500 Thanked: 89 Times	Diesel tech. IDI - Indirect injection DI - Direct Injection TDI - Direct injection with forced induction TDI - (with an added intercooler) PD - Pumpe' Duse or high pressure Unit injector (pressure maintained in each unit injector) CRDI - High pressure common rail injector (pressure maintained in a common rail and then injected) CRDI,VGT - Same as above but with latest innovation in forced induction via a variable vane geometry turbo. Would I be correct in the above sequencing of tech. and power delivery. Last edited by Torque-ative : 5th October 2009 at 17:09.
	() Thanks

6th October 2009, 11:21	#71
ShyamSCrdi BHPian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 344 Thanked: 2 Times	Need more information can anyone please post links as to where to read up on this. As for my questions i have a few links which are related. Audi R10 TDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In the above link R10 is stated to be common rail employing an aluminium engine. Another information audi calls its common rail engines as clean TDi. Another piece of information CRDi with a turbo is also an induced DI(direct injection) diesel engine. Hence, can it be concluded that CRDi is also TDi? Now another question :P are there any recent production cars sporting IDI engines? Shyam Last edited by ShyamSCrdi : 6th October 2009 at 11:23.
	() Thanks

6th October 2009, 11:58	#72
raj.barcode BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 706 Thanked: 273 Times View My Garage	this is from the company website, Check the specs for R15 Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Le Mans Specification of Audi R10 Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Customer sport R10 TDI This should clear up the doubts, and not all web information is correct so one has to be discreet when browsing Last edited by raj.barcode : 6th October 2009 at 12:02.
	() Thanks

6th October 2009, 12:41	#73
ShyamSCrdi BHPian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 344 Thanked: 2 Times	You may be right. But then there is confusion check out the link in the same audi website Audi Worldwide > Experience > Motorsport > Le Mans Dont ask me how i got the link. I just clicked on something and lo this came up :P Shyam
	() Thanks

11th June 2010, 23:51	#75
aa_asif BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: KL 07 > KA 03 Posts: 255 Thanked: 65 Times View My Garage	One doubt since the beginning of this thread: PD - More mechanical and less or no electronic parts to control the fuel flow behavior. CRDi - More electronics to control the fuel supply behavior. In this case how come there's a remapping (Pete's kit) possible for a Skoda Octavia which comes with a PD engine? Kindly correct where ever I've gone wrong...
	() Thanks