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Old 10th May 2008, 16:15   #31
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
V1p3r, Tata have intentionally restricted the power output of the common-rail Indica / Indigo due to concerns over the extra torque load on the gearbox.
I am aware of this, since I deal with Tata Motors, and their products, on a regular basis. My post meant something else.
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Old 17th January 2009, 12:48   #32
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I have not used the "pete" box you guys are talking about but I have used other tuners that do the exact same thing.

Manufacturers aim to reduce costs by "averaging" instead of "optimizing". A car that is sold in Kerala or Chennai must be able to perform flawelessly in the hills of northern India. As you can see - the tuning is immediately compromised to err on the side of caution. The car is also tuned to exceed any design standards (especially emissions and sometimes reliability) by a decent margin.

When you buy a car, you use the car under a small subset of operating parameters, so it's no surprise that the car is not optimized. What happens on a hot sunny day when you decide to overload your car and get stuck in traffic going uphill? With an agressive tune, the car might overheat and give you all sorts of problems, and warranty repairs are quite expensive for the companies! I think this explains why the diesel cars do not come with an agressive tune.

As you probably know - diesel engines will continue to make power as long as you add fuel and air. The only thing stopping you from adding more fuel and air beyond a point is that your engine will melt from the super-high temperatures.

It goes without saying that you are taxing your fuel system and turbos when you boost your car with a chip. This is not the tuner's fault - it's just the nature of the beast. You are taking a calculated risk when you decide to mess with the car's original settings.

I may have asked this earlier - but what model turbochargers do Swift's use? Also, can someone please give me some specs on the turbo like the turbo size, housing, A/R ratio, and boost levels? And if you know exactly how boost pressures are affected, please post that too. Its always good to have cold hard numbers.

Speaking of numbers, do you guys know what the cetane rating of the diesel you use is?

I think the correct way to upgrade your diesel is:
* Larger injectors (if needed). Also make sure fuel delivery is up to the task.
* Take intake air temps into account and upgrade the turbo and/or intercooler accordingly
* Make sure the transmission can handle the added power

Someone I know went through a lot of money and time to upgrade the powertrain on his Corvette. Then when he went finally got to the track - BOOM, his half-shaft just simply snapped when he tried to launch in 1st gear! The weakest link will always come back to bite you!
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Old 17th January 2009, 20:08   #33
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Based on my understanding :

Quote:
Pete's powerbox works in conjunction with the original ECU(intercepting it's signals and sending back altered ones), with pre-calculated increase in the diesel fuel injected quantity for the full RPM range of the vehicle. Remember that Pete's powerbox does not change your car's max speed, it just helps you to reach it faster by providing optimum torque and power.

What exactly Pete's Tuning box(popular in the forum) does is...
Read full post here
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Old 26th February 2010, 21:12   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
However the question still remains why do the manufacturers themselves do not provide the same mappings? ....

but then manufacturer can not make all the cars, particularly the mass produced ones, based on the requirements of a handful of enthusiasts.
..
They test their vehicles for a combined total of millions of kms under different conditions to arrive at the optimum setup.
Very valid points

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Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
My hunch is that petes adds some more duration to ECU set- by (maybe) amplifying the voltage to the ECU. Slightly bad for the injector. bUt the manufacturer has now way to know how much was the injector actually injecting if Petes not messing with the quantity maps.
IFF petes box is really superior, then why do manufacturers give that as a dealer option?

There is something called life of a product that every manufacturer has to comply with and design the product as well as the governmental norms and regulations that are set for vehicle manufacturers to achieve / comply with.

I believe that the Tuning boxes do NOT fulfill those and hence are not available as dealer options.

However, Not all automobile manufacturers are the same and there are exceptions to it.
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Old 28th February 2010, 23:10   #35
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To say that the life of the engine would decrease with a mere 20% increase in rating is the equivalent of saying you'd run out the battery of your calculator if you use it too much. Besides, people in Europe have been using tuning boxes for more than a decade now and there is not one major complaint.

here are facts - All engines are designed to work at a 125% of their current rating before they fail. This is called the safe working factor of components and this has to be certified.
the difference with a tuning box is simply that the tuning box alters both, the injection timing and the injection volume - thus giving you more power at lower rpms and gradually tapering it off at higher rpms. It plays a more important role upto the mid-torque range rather than at all ranges.
Why car manufacturer's didn't come up with an engine remap themselves has a lot to do with trying to sell different cars with the same engine - as mentioned before.
e.g. the VW Jetta, Skoda Laura, Audi A4 1.9, Skoda Octavia all have the exact same engines with some little difference like the Laura has a new fuel pump (Pumpe Deuse Technology). But the engines are all the same.
Remember that it has always been a major task to design a new engine and manufacturer's find it easier to modify the same engine and de-rate it to suit their needs. Don't think that they design an engine for every car - your car would cost ten times more for a well designed and tested engine.
Money makes all the difference and manufacturer's try to save every single bit - that one screw would be taken off if it would mean a lesser cost.

Engine temperature does tend to go up, but remember that unlike air cooled engines, water cooled engine radiators are more efficient and are also designed to take a load upto 125% before failing - so long run - if your radiator gets fouled, you might see a rise in engine temp.
Emissions - higher the peak pressures in a unit, higher the Nox emissions? - nope, sorry, that doesn't work out that way because your peak pressures don't exceed their max point - remember that the car doesn't go faster, it just gets there faster. IOW - the same peak pressure is reached at a lower rpm just by altering the injection timing and injection volume.
Nox emissions, however will increase with an increase in temperature and therefore, yes, the engine will belch out a larger amount of Nitrogen oxides, but 20% is a marginal increase, besides, you still don't have much to worry about. India is not responsible for global warming.

How about if I say a well designed tuning box/engine will actually help reduce emissions?
Simple - if you use the box wisely, you're consuming less fuel, therefore you balance out the emissions by driving like a human again (good luck with that though)

I've been using a tuning box (not pete's, sorry, I found that they were only the marketers and not designers of the the T/B and were charging WAYYY more than a TB available and just shipped across) for a long time now and with respect to emissions, temperatures (I've used an infrared gun) and fuel consumption - I found that it was indeed a boon to have if you're actually trying to save fuel.
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Old 1st March 2010, 00:57   #36
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Nice thoughts Otto. Which TB are you using? And on what ride?
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Old 2nd March 2010, 00:04   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neel385 View Post
Nice thoughts Otto. Which TB are you using? And on what ride?
Skoda Octavia 1.9TDi with DTE tuning box. LOVE IT! I just went to drop off a friend at the international airport and the car's trip comp reads 5.6l/100kms.
that ain't so bad. traffic was normal I'd say and I think I drove civilized.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 07:38   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
To say that the life of the engine would decrease with a mere 20% increase in rating is the equivalent of saying you'd run out the battery of your calculator if you use it too much.

Yes my friend, you will run out of battery faster. I'm talking time frames here.

Yes an increase in rail pressure will reduce the life of the rail.

AFAIK only BRabus and AMG kits retain warranty and give you performance!!
and are available as dealer options!
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Old 2nd March 2010, 13:47   #39
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Yes my friend, you will run out of battery faster. I'm talking time frames here.

Yes an increase in rail pressure will reduce the life of the rail.

AFAIK only BRabus and AMG kits retain warranty and give you performance!!
and are available as dealer options!
Run the battery down by how much? that's what I was getting at. It's negligible for all the reasons that I'd mentioned.
And an increase in rail pressure reducing the life of the rail - would you care to explain what part are we talking about here? the fuel pump? or the fuel header pipe (a.k.a the rail)?
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Old 2nd March 2010, 14:57   #40
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These boxes claim to improve performance and at the same time the FE. How come? In that case, either it is that these boxes work much better than the manufacturers mapping, or else the re-map's efficiency is perceptible only in spirited driving. Anyway, under performing engines will always heat less and hence the longer engine life.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 15:05   #41
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But in cases like the 1.3 MJD where the same engine runs with different torque/power specs are the above arguments applicable ? I guess it's the same pump/rail for the Punto and Linea. The only difference AFAIK is a VGT between the two, so can the increased power on the Punto with a box damage anything ?

Otto, how much did you pay for your box ?

Last edited by sdp1975 : 2nd March 2010 at 15:06.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 20:52   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto View Post
And an increase in rail pressure reducing the life of the rail - would you care to explain what part are we talking about here? the fuel pump? or the fuel header pipe (a.k.a the rail)?
The Fuel Pump as well as all the links, bends, unions that run from the pump to the injector are not designed to run more than stock.

If you do the mandatory test runs that products are supposed to run on a test bench to achieve conformance to specifications, then you'll understand that the issues associated with that. A short burst in excess of the specified limits does is not the same as continuous bursts!

Product Designers and manufacturers who are in / supply to the auto industry will understand what i mean!
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Old 2nd March 2010, 23:38   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
The Fuel Pump as well as all the links, bends, unions that run from the pump to the injector are not designed to run more than stock.

not true, they're designed for 125% their working load added to that their de-rating co-efficients. that's why you have the same engine with different powers e.g. 90bhp and 110bhp for the same engine - the difference between the two is the size of the injector bores.
take another example - the maruti swift DDis, Tata Manza, Fiat punto and now ever the Grand Vitara Diesel all use the same fiat engine but are with different power ratings. Care to explain that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
If you do the mandatory test runs that products are supposed to run on a test bench to achieve conformance to specifications, then you'll understand that the issues associated with that. A short burst in excess of the specified limits does is not the same as continuous bursts!
Maximum continous ratings (MCRs) are established for those particular ranges of operation and therefore you'll never have an engine operating at 100% efficiency. Just by increasing the power to 20 - 25% more, doesn't mean the engine will overload. There are always telltale signs to indicate an engine overloading and none of that is visible with a tuning box. Even if you do tune the box up to it's maximum possible limits. You're still never overloading an engine. Added to that, should a fuel pump ever be subjected to extreme operational parameters, it will always take you into "limp mode".
Bench testing is a very overrated term and over-used term - a marketing gimmick. Engines manufactured are only tested to failure conditions, after which they are detuned and certified. If you're talking about conformance to specifications - manufacturers' specifications supercede all the others. Emissions wise - there are safety margins there too, otherwise, if what you said were true - then it would be a major problem for an engine that has run say 100,000kms. It would fail all emission or any tests subjected to a brand new engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Product Designers and manufacturers who are in / supply to the auto industry will understand what i mean!
these guys have their hands tied on account of commercial demands. What is produced is never what they designed. Although I'm not in the production/,manufacturing business, I do have a lot of experience in engines albeit not actively in the auto industry but in an industry where the norms and specifications are much higher and stricter. It's not in my place to boast, but for every one sucessful (by that I mean commercially viable engine) there have been 100 ideas that have been scrapped. Take a look at Mahindra's basement in Worli, Mumbai - you'll see the number of prototypes just lying there because they failed in some way or the other.
The best way to put this is - the marketing and sales guys slash the cost down much to the chagrin of the design guys. It's the way that world has always run. There are a lot of factors going into producing an engine on a large scale - the major factor being costs. One of the reason why toyota, honda and now suzuki have so many recalls - bad investment for cheaper parts.

as for the other question - It cost me 25,000/-. Got it installed from 4 seasons.
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Old 2nd March 2010, 23:51   #44
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Just a thought-

Even though mass-manufacturing has heralded uniformity at least in theory, don't we know that no two cars are exactly alike?

Lets say Manufacturer A has a Model 1 that has an average failure rate of Component X at, say, 1,000,000 cycles - does that mean all cars belonging to Model 1 will have the same failure rate for Component X? No, the Component X in some cars may fail at 1,000, and in some other at 100,000,000.

To add more masala to the mix, what about external factors - fuel quality, tire pressure, atmospheric pressure, temperature, air quality, roads, and most important, the nut behind the wheel?!!

I believe that the stock tuning of a car is with this variance in consideration. Manufacturers cannot afford to have high failure rates, and hence in the trade-off between performance and reliability, reliability comes out stronger.

Now put in a Tuning Box- we are saying a car has a % tolerance - is that each and every piece, or the model in general?? The generality is what we discuss - what is a specific car, though performs well within reliability limits in stock, gets pushed over the border with the mod?

Not related to Diesel Tuning Box, but when I went for 195/55 R15 tires (against a stock of 175/65/R14 - 2.1% bigger than stock), I assumed I am still within tolerance limits. I was - mostly The rear left tire alone fouls the arch, and I had to tinker the arch - with stock tolerance of 175/65, this would never have happened, yes. But I know of Getz CRDis running 205/50 R15 without any fouling!
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Old 3rd March 2010, 00:07   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
Not related to Diesel Tuning Box, but when I went for 195/55 R15 tires (against a stock of 175/65/R14 - 2.1% bigger than stock), I assumed I am still within tolerance limits. I was - mostly The rear left tire alone fouls the arch, and I had to tinker the arch - with stock tolerance of 175/65, this would never have happened, yes. But I know of Getz CRDis running 205/50 R15 without any fouling!
There are various parameters other than tire size which aids in tire fouling like Alloy width, offset (critical) and suspension geometry.

195/55-15 usually don't touch anywhere. Anyways this is OT here we can discuss it somewhere else.

Cheers
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