Check Engine Light

aqualeo2040 · 2nd December 2013, 17:47

Here's my problem :

Mar 2013:
Got the car serviced at CARZ Bellandur.
They requested for TB clean up. Since the car was 4 years old, I agreed

.
They messed it up thoroughly. Initially the idle was too high (around 2k rpm). Returned the car. They managed to sort the idle but after a day, Engine Check Light came On.

Apr 2013:
Took the car to Kropex. They suggested to change the entire TB!

Rigged up a OBD Scanner and checked.
Error code : P0222
Driving cycle was also not impacted.

Have reset the code multiple times, but it keeps coming back.
Also, found a strange noise coming from the TB when the key is in MAR position. The soleniod seems to hunt for groove or something and keeps missing. Sounds goes away once the engine is turned on.

Checked up on the error code here :
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.asp...NEXT_DTC_P0222

Controlling the idle speed taking the throttle body along is the objective of the MTIA (Main Throttle Idle Actuator)
The throttle is so devised and motorized that low opening angle (05, 22.55) can be encompassed.
Features of the air flow vary for low and high opening angles.
The gradient of the mass air flow function of TPS remains small in case of angles of lesser degree which enables better precision during the idle speed control.
A classical Bowden cable mechanically actuates the throttle out of idle speed.
A voltage signal changing in relation to the throttle plate angle is supplied by the throttle position sensor (TPS).
There will be a difference in the signal voltage from about nearly 5.0 V at idle to about 0.2 V to 0.4 V at wide open throttle.
The ECM has the TPS as a very important tool assisting it in fuel control and other functions such as idle, wide open throttle, deceleration enleanment, and acceleration enrichment.

Question: When does DTC set?
Answer: MTIA voltage is less than 0.275V

Can someone put this in a little more english and tell me what I need to do? I still dont believe that this needs a complete TB change!

Am more than willing to get this up for a check for any of the Bangy folks to inspect.

DerAlte · 2nd December 2013, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by aqualeo2040

... Mar 2013:
Got the car serviced at CARZ Bellandur.
They requested for TB clean up. Since the car was 4 years old, I agreed. ...

* Did you go in for the service for a specific reason or was it supposed to be just a general service?

* Did they say WHY they recommended a TB clean-up? (4 years? So what?)

* Did it not occur to you to check on TBHP whether or not to get the TB cleaned?

* Did Kropex say WHY the TB should be replaced (when you had gone to Carz with a perfectly healthy car)?

* Did it occur to you why they are recommending a TB replacement when nothing was wrong before you went there?

* How sure are you Carz had not already swapped your TB for an older kaput TB? Don't assume malpractices won't be there if they talk nicely.

Your quoted text basically means TB is not able to go into the idle opening setting (at least the ECU thinks it is not) - either something is jamming the flap, or the encoder (the flap position sensor) is disconnected / connection is loose. One hopes it is the latter and the simple cure is disconnect and reconnect!

So much for TB cleaning!

aqualeo2040 · 2nd December 2013, 19:01

* Did you go in for the service for a specific reason or was it supposed to be just a general service?
Ans: It was a regular scheduled service. Had got it serviced from Trident earlier. Since it was far off from Bellandur, where I stay, and that Carz was close by, decided to give it a try. How can someone mess up a simple petrol car service :(

* Did they say WHY they recommended a TB clean-up? (4 years? So what?)
Ans : Yes, I am an idiot for agreeing. Since its my wife's ride, I have been paying very high interest installments for this (including visits to Tanishq)

* Did it not occur to you to check on TBHP whether or not to get the TB cleaned?
Ans :
1. I am an idiot
2. How can someone mess up a simple petrol car service

* Did Kropex say WHY the TB should be replaced (when you had gone to Carz with a perfectly healthy car)?
Ans : Because they saw the same error code and decided that the TB sensor is kaput.

* Did it occur to you why they are recommending a TB replacement when nothing was wrong before you went there?
Ans : When I took the car to Kropex, the car already had the CEL on and was returning the same P0222 error code on the adapter. It returned the same error code on the GM Scanner as well.

* How sure are you Carz had not already swapped your TB for an older kaput TB? Don't assume malpractices won't be there if they talk nicely.
Ans : Highly possible!

The explanation ties up to the kind of sound the TB makes initially. Care to take a look?

I missed another bit in the earlier post:
When I mentioned the sound to Kropex, they managed to show me couple of other cars with similar sounds and said that its normal!
Which is why I was trying to find some other Spark owners who can corroborate the same as a fact.

At this moment, I think it needs a logical mind to step through things.
Tried locating the service manual on the net, and all the links are dead at this moment.

a4anurag · 2nd December 2013, 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aqualeo2040

Here's my problem :

Rigged up a OBD Scanner and checked.
Error code : P0222
Driving cycle was also not impacted.

Can someone put this in a little more english and tell me what I need to do? I still dont believe that this needs a complete TB change!

Please get the sensors checked once. And the voltage to the TPS. May be it is lower than needed so the CEL.

I presume this car is a Chevrolet Spark.

Anurag.

Jeroen · 2nd December 2013, 22:09

Here's my take on this; this particular P code shows up when there is a problem with the potentiometer on the throttle body, or the electric circuit to the potentiometer.

On quite a few cars, the "official" instruction is to replace the whole throttle body. This is for instance the case on Jaguars. The truth is there is usually nothing wrong with the throttle body itself, it's just the potent meter and or the connectors or the wiring. Problem is that many manufacturers don't offer that particular part (ie. the potentiometer) separately. So the official course of action is to replace the whole TB.

Here's what I would do:

Check and clean all the electrical contacts and connectors thoroughly. Pull all the connectors in this particular circuit, clean them with electrical contact cleaner, put du-electric grease on them and re-install.

If you're lucky this might cure your problem.

Check the various manufacturer specific forums around the world for similar problems. usually somebody comes up with an easy repair, because, if it is the potent meter, all you have to do is replace that. Again, there might be possibilities to clean it with electro cleaner. you would find information on the manufacturer specific websites.

Main dealers are unlikely to do the above for you. They just want to replace the TB and hopefully the fault will disappear.

So you need to find someone who can help out, or do it yourself, with a smidgen of electrical/electronics understanding.

Good luck

jeroen

aqualeo2040 · 3rd December 2013, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Please get the sensors checked once. And the voltage to the TPS. May be it is lower than needed so the CEL.

I presume this car is a Chevrolet Spark.

Anurag.

Thanks Anurag.
Apologies. I guess I missed mentioning the ride. You are bang on, its a 2009 Spark LT.

Any idea what is the voltage range I should be checking for?
I believe I can check that with the Torque app or need a voltmeter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Here's my take on this; this particular P code shows up when there is a problem with the potentiometer on the throttle body, or the electric circuit to the potentiometer.

Here's what I would do:

Check and clean all the electrical contacts and connectors thoroughly. Pull all the connectors in this particular circuit, clean them with electrical contact cleaner, put du-electric grease on them and re-install.

If you're lucky this might cure your problem.

Good luck

jeroen

Thanks Jeroen.
I wanted to go down this route primarily. What I am in dire need of is someone who can walk me through this hands on

Its like that marine engineer and the hammer. I for one, do not have a clue where to use the hammer, but would surely like to learn.

a4anurag · 3rd December 2013, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by aqualeo2040

Thanks Anurag.
Apologies. I guess I missed mentioning the ride. You are bang on, its a 2009 Spark LT.

Any idea what is the voltage range I should be checking for?
I believe I can check that with the Torque app or need a voltmeter?

The Torque PRO app will give you battery voltage and nothing more. You will need a voltmeter.

I hope you would be having a known friendly mechanic, so go to him with the above solutions and ask him to check. The ASC is useless as they will be hell bent to replace the whole TB.

All the best

Anurag

vnabhi · 3rd December 2013, 21:33

Guys

When you are talking of 'check engine light', is it the one with the exclamation mark within a circle, or the one related to engine malfunction? Ford cars have both, but Marutis only have the latter.

Just wanted to make sure that the topic concerns which light.

I've had the former light coming on and off in winters on my Fiesta on early morning starts, but this winter it has not surfaced this far. Keeping my fingers crossed. But the easiest solution for my car was re-starting the car, which got rid of that nasty light.

a4anurag · 3rd December 2013, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnabhi

Guys

When you are talking of 'check engine light', is it the one with the exclamation mark within a circle, or the one related to engine malfunction? Ford cars have both, but Marutis only have the latter.

Just wanted to make sure that the topic concerns which light.

I've had the former light coming on and off in winters on my Fiesta on early morning starts, but this winter it has not surfaced this far. Keeping my fingers crossed. But the easiest solution for my car was re-starting the car, which got rid of that nasty light.

Exclamation mark within a circle = Handbrake engaged

Check Engine Light-forumrunner_20131203_223044.png

Engine block diagram

Check Engine Light-forumrunner_20131203_223018.png

The discussion here is on the second one.

Anurag.

vnabhi · 4th December 2013, 21:21

Hey Anurag, I know about those two lights. There is yet another light on Ford cars that deals with engine/drive train problems. It looks like the handbrake light, but there is no half circle outside the main circle. This apart, the circle is rough.

a4anurag · 4th December 2013, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnabhi

Hey Anurag, I know about those two lights. There is yet another light on Ford cars that deals with engine/drive train problems. It looks like the handbrake light, but there is no half circle outside the main circle. This apart, the circle is rough.

Is it this light (right most corner) that your referring to?

Check Engine Light-forumrunner_20131204_214951.png

Anurag.

vnabhi · 4th December 2013, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Is it this light (right most corner) that your referring to?

Anurag.

Exactly, you've hit the nail on the head!

mashmash · 4th December 2013, 22:22

1. PATS
2.Engine coolant temperature warning lamp
3. Door open warning lamp
4. MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp)
5. Brake system warning lamp
6. Ignition Warning Lamp
7. Oil pressure warning lamp
8. Illumination ON indicator
9. Low fuel warning lamp
10. Engine check warning lamp

a4anurag · 4th December 2013, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mashmash

1. PATS
2.Engine coolant temperature warning lamp
3. Door open warning lamp
4. MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp)
5. Brake system warning lamp
6. Ignition Warning Lamp
7. Oil pressure warning lamp
8. Illumination ON indicator
9. Low fuel warning lamp
10. Engine check warning lamp

Good,

Now that you have come. Please let me know what is the difference between symbol 04 & 10.

Anurag.

mashmash · 5th December 2013, 01:24

They all mean one thing and that is rush to nearest Ford Service Center.

2nd December 2013, 17:47	#76
aqualeo2040 BHPian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Back 2 Bangy Posts: 458 Thanked: 465 Times View My Garage	Re: Check Engine Light Here's my problem : Mar 2013: Got the car serviced at CARZ Bellandur. They requested for TB clean up. Since the car was 4 years old, I agreed. They messed it up thoroughly. Initially the idle was too high (around 2k rpm). Returned the car. They managed to sort the idle but after a day, Engine Check Light came On. Apr 2013: Took the car to Kropex. They suggested to change the entire TB! Rigged up a OBD Scanner and checked. Error code : P0222 Driving cycle was also not impacted. Have reset the code multiple times, but it keeps coming back. Also, found a strange noise coming from the TB when the key is in MAR position. The soleniod seems to hunt for groove or something and keeps missing. Sounds goes away once the engine is turned on. Checked up on the error code here : http://www.bba-reman.com/content.asp...NEXT_DTC_P0222 Controlling the idle speed taking the throttle body along is the objective of the MTIA (Main Throttle Idle Actuator) The throttle is so devised and motorized that low opening angle (05, 22.55) can be encompassed. Features of the air flow vary for low and high opening angles. The gradient of the mass air flow function of TPS remains small in case of angles of lesser degree which enables better precision during the idle speed control. A classical Bowden cable mechanically actuates the throttle out of idle speed. A voltage signal changing in relation to the throttle plate angle is supplied by the throttle position sensor (TPS). There will be a difference in the signal voltage from about nearly 5.0 V at idle to about 0.2 V to 0.4 V at wide open throttle. The ECM has the TPS as a very important tool assisting it in fuel control and other functions such as idle, wide open throttle, deceleration enleanment, and acceleration enrichment. Question: When does DTC set? Answer: MTIA voltage is less than 0.275V Can someone put this in a little more english and tell me what I need to do? I still dont believe that this needs a complete TB change! Am more than willing to get this up for a check for any of the Bangy folks to inspect. Last edited by DerAlte : 2nd December 2013 at 18:05. Reason: Removed reduntant tags. Please do not cut and paste from external editor
	() Thanks

2nd December 2013, 19:01	#78
aqualeo2040 BHPian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Back 2 Bangy Posts: 458 Thanked: 465 Times View My Garage	Re: Check Engine Light * Did you go in for the service for a specific reason or was it supposed to be just a general service? Ans: It was a regular scheduled service. Had got it serviced from Trident earlier. Since it was far off from Bellandur, where I stay, and that Carz was close by, decided to give it a try. How can someone mess up a simple petrol car service :( * Did they say WHY they recommended a TB clean-up? (4 years? So what?) Ans : Yes, I am an idiot for agreeing. Since its my wife's ride, I have been paying very high interest installments for this (including visits to Tanishq) * Did it not occur to you to check on TBHP whether or not to get the TB cleaned? Ans : 1. I am an idiot 2. How can someone mess up a simple petrol car service * Did Kropex say WHY the TB should be replaced (when you had gone to Carz with a perfectly healthy car)? Ans : Because they saw the same error code and decided that the TB sensor is kaput. * Did it occur to you why they are recommending a TB replacement when nothing was wrong before you went there? Ans : When I took the car to Kropex, the car already had the CEL on and was returning the same P0222 error code on the adapter. It returned the same error code on the GM Scanner as well. * How sure are you Carz had not already swapped your TB for an older kaput TB? Don't assume malpractices won't be there if they talk nicely. Ans : Highly possible! The explanation ties up to the kind of sound the TB makes initially. Care to take a look? I missed another bit in the earlier post: When I mentioned the sound to Kropex, they managed to show me couple of other cars with similar sounds and said that its normal! Which is why I was trying to find some other Spark owners who can corroborate the same as a fact. At this moment, I think it needs a logical mind to step through things. Tried locating the service manual on the net, and all the links are dead at this moment.
	() Thanks

2nd December 2013, 22:09	#80
Jeroen Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Delhi Posts: 8,100 Thanked: 50,864 Times View My Garage	Re: Check Engine Light Here's my take on this; this particular P code shows up when there is a problem with the potentiometer on the throttle body, or the electric circuit to the potentiometer. On quite a few cars, the "official" instruction is to replace the whole throttle body. This is for instance the case on Jaguars. The truth is there is usually nothing wrong with the throttle body itself, it's just the potent meter and or the connectors or the wiring. Problem is that many manufacturers don't offer that particular part (ie. the potentiometer) separately. So the official course of action is to replace the whole TB. Here's what I would do: Check and clean all the electrical contacts and connectors thoroughly. Pull all the connectors in this particular circuit, clean them with electrical contact cleaner, put du-electric grease on them and re-install. If you're lucky this might cure your problem. Check the various manufacturer specific forums around the world for similar problems. usually somebody comes up with an easy repair, because, if it is the potent meter, all you have to do is replace that. Again, there might be possibilities to clean it with electro cleaner. you would find information on the manufacturer specific websites. Main dealers are unlikely to do the above for you. They just want to replace the TB and hopefully the fault will disappear. So you need to find someone who can help out, or do it yourself, with a smidgen of electrical/electronics understanding. Good luck jeroen
	(1) Thanks

3rd December 2013, 21:33	#83
vnabhi Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: DC -> DC Posts: 5,958 Thanked: 2,393 Times View My Garage	Re: Check Engine Light Guys When you are talking of 'check engine light', is it the one with the exclamation mark within a circle, or the one related to engine malfunction? Ford cars have both, but Marutis only have the latter. Just wanted to make sure that the topic concerns which light. I've had the former light coming on and off in winters on my Fiesta on early morning starts, but this winter it has not surfaced this far. Keeping my fingers crossed. But the easiest solution for my car was re-starting the car, which got rid of that nasty light.
	() Thanks

4th December 2013, 21:21	#85
vnabhi Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: DC -> DC Posts: 5,958 Thanked: 2,393 Times View My Garage	Re: Check Engine Light Hey Anurag, I know about those two lights. There is yet another light on Ford cars that deals with engine/drive train problems. It looks like the handbrake light, but there is no half circle outside the main circle. This apart, the circle is rough.
	() Thanks

4th December 2013, 22:22	#88
mashmash BHPian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 390 Thanked: 156 Times	1. PATS 2.Engine coolant temperature warning lamp 3. Door open warning lamp 4. MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) 5. Brake system warning lamp 6. Ignition Warning Lamp 7. Oil pressure warning lamp 8. Illumination ON indicator 9. Low fuel warning lamp 10. Engine check warning lamp Attached Thumbnails
	(2) Thanks

5th December 2013, 01:24	#90
mashmash BHPian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 390 Thanked: 156 Times	They all mean one thing and that is rush to nearest Ford Service Center.
	() Thanks