[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

Of those attempts, the engine did start once only to stall in a couple of seconds. Eventually, they said the engine couldn't even be rotated manually (whatever that means).

Some thoughts:

So you got a low oil pressure warning and pulled over immediately. There was 2.0 L of oil left in the engine. And the engine did initially turn over and started, but stalled quickly.No visible oil leaks.

The Service guys claim it won’t turn over and believe a problem with the oil pump to be the main culprit.

Again, I find it hard to believe that an engine with 2 liter of oil left in it would have sustained a lot of wear and tear. There might be some, but the question is would it affect normal engine performance?

There are a few other questions that do need investigating and or answering.

1) Where did that oil disappear to? If there are no visible leaks, how come the oil was so low. Did you check regularly the oil lever. So was it a sudden drop?

2) Is there anything amiss with the oil pump. In my experience that would be very rare but it does happen. Years ago we had an Alfa Romeo Spider brake down on us whilst touring in the UK. The oil pump drive had broken, most likely because the distributor (to which it is attached) was incorrectly installed after some repairs.

So you need to figure out what was wrong with the oil pump. If there is nothing wrong, it becomes a very iffy story indeed. Just some low oil level. So ask the service guys to check the oil pump. I’m not familiar with this engine, but usually that is just a case of dropping the oil pan/sump and see what’s amiss.

Next, go along the lines suggested by Autonoob. It is really important to establish whether the engine turns over or not (in which case it would be seized). If it does turn over, measure the compression on each cilinder. If that is ok, there is nothing to worry about. If the engine won’t start there is something else amiss.

You still need to figure out what happened to your oil. If it disappears, no leaks and good compression, you might have a problem with your turbo (if you have one) or you might not have checked your oil level for several months/weeks/ thousands of km. Again, you need to make sure to find the root cause of why there was so little oil.

Summary:
- Make sure the engine can turn over, i.e. isn’t seized
- Make sure you understand what is wrong with the oil pump
- Make sure you understand why the oil level was so low

Good luck

Jeroen

[prakash_ajp]

Thanks Jeroen and Autonoob for the inputs. The only additional information I haven't mentioned is that there were some dents in the oil sump, but absolutely nothing that will let the oil leak. I am not entirely confident that the service personnel would be able to nail down the root cause beyond the speculation that the oil sump or the pump or both may be the culprits. Honestly, I don't have the wherewithal to find out myself.

So, at this point, I am considering either procuring an engine from another car or buying a brand new half-engine from Fiat to move forward.

[prithm]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Summary:
- Make sure the engine can turn over, i.e. isn’t seized
- Make sure you understand what is wrong with the oil pump
- Make sure you understand why the oil level was so low

Good luck

Jeroen

Just a alternate thought. Since there was no oil leak and engine is refusing to start, can this case be considered for "Hydrolock" ? Albeit a mild hydrolock which has caused the engine to just die rather than blowing up seals.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by prithm

Just a alternate thought. Since there was no oil leak and engine is refusing to start, can this case be considered for "Hydrolock" ? Albeit a mild hydrolock which has caused the engine to just die rather than blowing up seals.

I can think of several dozens of reasons why an engine won’t start. But I go by the facts we have heard so far. Nothing suggest such a problem. The engine was running, a low oil pressure indication, immediately stopped and initially at least the engine still turned over.

I’m not sure what a mild hydrolock constitutes of. Once you get water on top of the pistons it’s curtains!

Jeroen

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Make sure the engine can turn over, i.e. isn’t seized

Originally Posted by white_wolf

I have not given them permission to start the work but only to open the engine for full diagnosis and firm estimate.

The vehicle is fairly maintained with two engine oil changes last year. Below is the service history so far (took this from Hyundai Portal itself):

1. 24-July-14 -- 2200 kms -- First Free service
2. 09-Feb-15 -- 9900 kms -- Second free service + Accidental repair (SAME ASC)
3. 12-Sep-16 -- 19000 kms -- Paid service (diff Hyundai ASC)
4. 29-Mar-19 -- 32000 kms -- Paid service (diff Hyundai ASC)
5. 05-Dec-19 -- 39000 kms -- Paid service + AC repair work (SAME ASC)

All the paid services had Oil changes done. Due to the gap of 2.5 yrs in service 3 and 4 they have declined any kind of warranty support from ASC or Hyundai saying its a "Service Lapse" issue.

They also told me that this issue is only because of that service gap although the vehicle was running fine so far before the issue. Since there was no gradual drop in performance, how can there be an engine seizure issue now because of a minor service gap which happened approx 2 yrs ago is completely beyond me.

They have shared with me the attached DTC readings

I am thinking of pushing them to connect me with Hyundai person or i pack the engine and move away.

To be honest, not changing your engine oil & filter for 2+ years is a mortal sin. By that alone, Hyundai is well within their rights to deny providing any financial relief for this claim.

Also, from your service history, if the oil was only changed during the paid services, does it mean that you had your first oil change at 2yrs/19,000kms? That is way too long between oil changes! Not changing your oil frequently is a good way to ensure the engine will prematurely start burning oil in the near future.

Coming to their evidence, the trouble codes are related. However, the pictures of the compression test are inconclusive, in my eyes. Compression tests are best done with video so that you can verify that the test was indeed performed correctly & that the psi readings are genuine. Plus, the background in both the images seems different (questionable), is that even your engine bay in the background?

But, to address the elephant in the room, for an engine to seize (if it has indeed seized), it should’ve run out of oil. A lot of things would have needed to happen before it runs out of oil, such as - low oil pressure warning, overheating, weird/strange engine noises.

The DTC codes indicate multiple misfires and TPS malfunctions. The misfires may be related to the codes for the failed fuel injectors. However, for the cat to have failed, the engine misfires (and resulting check engine light) would have to be ignored for a long time, by the person behind the wheel.

To sum it all up, I have more questions than answers, from the initial diagnostic report which you have received.

Has your engine really seized because it burnt all the oil and ended up running out of it, or is the ASC using the prolonged interval between oil changes as a convenient excuse to fool you into thinking the engine has indeed seized?

Have the fuel injectors failed due to bad fuel? Why just 3 of them? Why not all 4?

What’s the condition of the original spark plugs? The ones changed by the local mechanic. They will show tell tale signs of an oil burning/misfiring engine.

I think you need them to perform all the diagnosis in front of you showing evidence, or, tow the vehicle to another ASC or trusted independent mechanic and get them to diagnose the problem.

[white_wolf]

Originally Posted by ChoosetoCruze

To be honest, not changing your engine oil & filter for 2+ years is a mortal sin. By that alone, Hyundai is well within their rights to deny providing any financial relief for this claim.

Thanks ChooseToCruz for introducing me to this great thread. Brings a lot of clarity around engine seizures.

Yes, I think that service gap is proving to be a fatal miss. Free services also had engine oil changes (I just highlighted for Paid services for clarity).

There was no overheating as per the driver. My Father was in the car and he and the driver did not notice any strange noise coming from the engine etc. This was all very sudden.

Update : Received the final estimate from ASC of about INR 78k of material and 12k of labour with a rider that there can be some consequential damages as well in the process.

Major costs are :

• CAT CON : INR 34,500
• PISTON and PIN Assy : 12,600
• PISTON RING SET : 6000
• BEARING Set (Crankshaft and C-ROD) : 5500 (9 nos.)
• Gasket cylinder head : 3500

So it looks like both CAT Con failure and engine seizure (as both piston and Piston rings are damaged). Thank god so far for Crank and Connecting rod to be not listed as damaged parts.

Hyundai ASC guy told me its due to Engine Oil thinning as they lose lubricating properties. This makes sense for Piston and Piston ring set damage. But, since the last oil change it has been less than an year and less than 6000 kms overall. So would oil thin out that fast?

And on top of it, the Cat Con failure does not add to the full story as well.

I have asked ASC guys to connect me with Hyundai guys to have a word with them before any work is started. Will keep you guys posted.

[ChoosetoCruze]

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Hyundai ASC guy told me its due to Engine Oil thinning as they lose lubricating properties. This makes sense for Piston and Piston ring set damage. But, since the last oil change it has been less than an year and less than 6000 kms overall. So would oil thin out that fast?

And on top of it, the Cat Con failure does not add to the full story as well.

The excuse of old unchanged engine oil doesn’t hold water in your case because you changed it recently. If they claim the engine is burning oil, then that makes sense, but did they show you proof?

How much oil was drained out from the engine when they dismantled it?

A badly misfiring engine, left unfixed long enough, will damage the cat. Again, they need to show you proof.

Something still smells fishy about their whole diagnosis.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ChoosetoCruze

But, to address the elephant in the room, for an engine to seize (if it has indeed seized), it should’ve run out of oil. A lot of things would have needed to happen before it runs out of oil, such as - low oil pressure warning, overheating, weird/strange engine noises.

Just to add, over and beyond this particular case: Engine seizure can happen for a variety of reasons. Actually, running out of oil, is likely to be one of the rarest.

Roughly speaking, there can be three main reasons for an engine to seize:

1) Oil related
Obviously, an engine without oil will seize. But you will be surprised how little oil an engine need to keep going. It will cause considerable wear. Engines do use oil, and worn engines can use a lot of oil. Although typically the lower the oil level falls the less oil is being used. So it is very rare for an engine to seize due to oil consumption as such.

As mentioned you are likely to get an oil pressure alarm long before the engine is about to seize.

There are a few other oil related causes. Problems with the oil pump can be a real problem. If your oil pump fails and you ignore the oil pressure warning, it will be curtains for the engine if you ignore the oil pressure alarm. Most oil pumps are gear/worm driven and extremely reliable. However, when anything goes wrong, it tends to go wrong very quickly, with disastrous effects.

One known scenario is going to fast across a speed bump. Your sump will hit the speed bump, dent, gets pushed in and that might hit the oil suction pipe and or dislocate the oil pump drive. I have seen it several times during some of my tours and rallies across Europe.

Another reason is blockage in some of the oil channel. You might not even get an oil pressure alarm!. The sump level will be fine, but your engine could just seize, just like that. The main reason for this can be switching from mineral to synthetic oil, or any debris left in the sump after maintenance/repairs.

2) Cooling related
Whereas the oil does provide critical cooling, the cooling liquid does too. A clogged up cilinder head can cause the engine to seize, just like that, no warning, none whatsoever!

Similar, if you ignore a low level cooling liquid alarm or a high cooling temperature alarm, your engine could well seize. (With a perfectly filled sump full of the most expensive oil!!)

3) Mechanical mishap
This is probably one of the rarest, but it does happen occasionally. For instance if a valve for whatever reason decides to drop at the wrong moment (because something breaks). I have seen a case where a part of spark plug appeared to have broken off and fallen into the cylinder and when the piston came back up, that what is it!! Engine done for.

I have seen a few cases where main bearings, for whatever reason, came undone. These are all very exceptional cases, often very spectacular if you happen to witness them, or a fortunate to be around when they open up the engine.


To summarise: In nearly all cases you will see some alarms on your dashboard. If a red light shows up, you have to stop and switch off your engine. Be careful, come to a full stop safely, obviously. But you have to stop and switch off your engine!

Because modern cars tend to have pretty good sound insulation, don’t for a minute think you might hear anything before the engine seizes. Engine seizes in seconds. And when you can hear something, you are already too late!

Having said all of the above, I do think, actual engine seizures are quite rare. I have come across all of the above, more than once, but it never resulted in an engine seizure, because the driver always managed to switch of the engine, before any permanent damage was done!

Happy motoring!

Jeroen

[Gansan]

I have seen two stroke engines seize due to careless use during run in or after a rebore/rebuild. The oil was mixed to petrol, so lack of oil or oil pump malfunction were not issues.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Gansan

I have seen two stroke engines seize due to careless use during run in or after a rebore/rebuild. The oil was mixed to petrol, so lack of oil or oil pump malfunction were not issues.

2 Stroke is a whole different ballgame and simply put not idiot-friendly technology, back when I was in college I've known several cases where someone borrowed a 2 Stroke and seized it within the hour.

Since we're on the topic of seizures, the strangest one I've seen is of a K Series Suzuki a friend was working on, it was a brand new motor that seized just like that, on disassembly the con-rods were bent indicating a hydro-lock, but there wasn't any water in the cylinder only some fuel. Later on it was found that the hydro-lock was caused by fuel flooding the combustion chamber. I found it quite strange, mostly cause my experience is limited to Carbureted engines I presume and something of this nature is unheard of.

Cheers,
A.P.

[white_wolf]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Just to add, over and beyond this particular case: Engine seizure can happen for a variety of reasons. Actually, running out of oil, is likely to be one of the rarest.

Roughly speaking, there can be three main reasons for an engine to seize:

1) Oil related

2) Cooling related

Interesting cases indeed!

A quick update on the issue, spoke to Hyundai ASC and the Hyundai area manager. Both are consistent on the topic of the engine failure due to gap in oil change 2 yrs back. Both are not convinced by frequent oil changes post that. Have given me 20% off on labour and 5% on the material which does not help much as majority cost is in the part. Have given them go ahead to start the work and 50% advance to order the parts.

A very basic query in general, in case the engine is seized will it continue to run at a lower speed as in at a speed of 20kmph if pushed. There was a lowering of speed in this case and at slow speed engine was driven for about 5-10 minutes.


Oil related
I could see oil throwing out of the dip stick and sump cover so engine oil was definitely there in good amount. Confirmed by ASC also that engine oil was recovered in some amount. There was no oil pressure alarm when the vehicle went for the trip.

Is there a way to check oil channel blockage ? If it is because of some leftover residue after service should it not happen shortly after the maintenance and repairs?

Cooling
Some coolant was found. Less than normal but more than minimum specified.

Checklight checks are doubtful as driver was behind the wheel.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by white_wolf

A very basic query in general, in case the engine is seized will it continue to run at a lower speed as in at a speed of 20kmph if pushed. There was a lowering of speed in this case and at slow speed engine was driven for about 5-10 minutes.

If an engine has seized, it will not turn, no matter what. An engine seize means some components have seized, a bearing, or piston/cylinder, and they have literally fused together, massive damage. Without major repair a seized engine won’t run again.

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Oil related
I could see oil throwing out of the dip stick and sump cover so engine oil was definitely there in good amount. Confirmed by ASC also that engine oil was recovered in some amount. There was no oil pressure alarm when the vehicle went for the trip.

Not sure what you mean with oil throwing out of the dip stick? It should not! That could indicate way to much oil and that can be as bad as too little oil. The only way to check the level of oil is to stop the engine, leave it for a couple of minutes for the oil to drain back into the sump and then check the level. Best way to do, is actually prior to starting the engine, so with cold engine oil. Car should be horizontal. Oil spewing out spontaneously usually means too much oil, or something else is wrong.

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Is there a way to check oil channel blockage ? If it is because of some leftover residue after service should it not happen shortly after the maintenance and repairs?

Other than oil pressure warning light, no not really. The most common reason for an oil channel blockage is too big interval on oil and filter replacement. The oil filter has a build in pressure relief valve. If the oil filter becomes to dirty a too large differential pressure across the filter builds up, which could effect the oil pressure in the engine. So they build in a relief valve. This will open, ensuring a free flow of oil to the engine. However, this means that effectively the oil filter is, internally, by passed. So you get a free flow of oil to the engine, but it is unfiltered! Your oil filter is supposed to filter out larger particles. Now it won’t anymore. The sump suction usually has some sort of filter/mesh as well. It is there to prevent mostly larger object that might have dropped into the sump from being sucked into the oil pump. Think the odd piece of piston ring, maybe a nut or a washer that has come undone.

During normal servicing it is highly unlikely anything will drop into the engine that can cause an oil channel blockage. For no other reason engines don’t get opened up during normal servicing, so nothing can fall in.

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Cooling
Some coolant was found. Less than normal but more than minimum specified.

As long as your coolant is above minimum you should be ok.

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Checklight checks are doubtful as driver was behind the wheel.

Drivers are notorious for ignoring red and amber lights on the Dash. My wife and my dad never ever stopped for a red warning light, or even notice it. When they did, they would still drive home and tell me: “could you have a look at the car, it doesn’t drive very well. And there is some pesky annoying red light on the dash too”

Go figure. We had to replace engines twice on my dad’s car because he ignored the oil pressure light. My wife drove all the way to Paris and back (1200KM) with the handbrake (light) on. Not much of a handbrake left I can tell. And when she got home she complained of a burning smell all the way to Paris. And some pesky red light on the dash!

Jeroen

[srini1785]

DISCLAIMER : Not exactly a car guy but speaking from Motorcycle experience.

From what i read and understood , it does not occur to me that 2 year gap in Engine oil change is the culprit. If there is misfire as reported by the OBD and combined with loss of cylinder compression, then you need to look at the valves and the timing belt. If gauge reading is 2bar or 30PSI , then it is too low. Anything under 90psi is abnormal. The other reason is that it could also be a case of worn out piston rings in which case you need to just rebore to the next oversize. Is your engine stock?.

As regards the catalytic converter going kaput, it could be that the few kms of running in low compression would have clogged it.

PS : Most motorcycles engine seizures that i have seen are due to adulterated petrol (read Petrol + Kerosene) , keeping the bike standing for years to gather without draining the fluids in open ground or simply over revving the engine in a drag race.