Can the functionality of ABS be simulated on Non-ABS cars?

abhinav.s · 25th October 2008, 00:03

Hello everyone!!!

Phew! After a nerve wrecking, physically demanding, tension filled 3-4 weeks, I am back to my favourite hang out. God did I miss this place.
Well to cut the very long story short, I am back after winning a property litigation with great difficulty and a great deal of money! All the savings planned for the OHC/Baleno went into feeding the lawyers to help them get a better set of wheels probably!

But back to the question in hand, I was wondering if the functionality of ABS be simulated on a Non-ABS car? I am not sure of this, but can depressing-releasing the brakes in very short intervals, avoid locking of the wheels and also help in slowing down the vehicle substantially or am i being

pranavt · 25th October 2008, 00:26

Releasing the brakes as soon as you feel your tyres locking is pretty much what ABS does anyways. But you need to be very very experienced and should be able to judge the grip available in milliseconds. And then there's the thing about not panicking and being quick to release the brakes even though it goes against conventional right-side-brain thinking.

I've been through a couple of these locked-tyres moments and they've been really scary. Of course, if you have some road available in any steerable direction, your first move should be to start turning the wheel in that direction without applying the brakes at all. If they tyres do lock at any moment, it becomes much simpler to the brain to just release the brakes. YMMV, and it's always safer to drive slower on those roads where you don't know the grip levels.

Also, congratulations on winning your litigation case.

abhinav.s · 25th October 2008, 00:42

Bingo Pranavt, thats what i thought it to be. I have been through only 1 such situation where the wheels locked when i braked suddenly. I dont know what made me do it, but as soon as i felt the wheels locking, i let go of the brakes for a fraction of a second and depressed it again & kept repeating it till the car slowed down to a more handleable speed. I was able to come out of the situation unscathed.

And like you said, during panic braking, the brain might not pass on the right signals and we just tend to slam the brakes.

Thanks for your wishes!

humyum · 25th October 2008, 01:04

Totally agree, would love to be in control myself rather than having a computer decide on anything.
Maybe i m old school but i would never buy an ABS vehicle.Have panicked braked a gazzilion times from a lakh and more kilomters i have driven till now and have mastered the art of braking hard/using the maximum distance available and steering away from obstacles all in tandem.

Thad E Ginathom · 25th October 2008, 02:05

Most of us mortals will probably do one thing when the time comes: stand on the brake.

Even lesser mortals might stand on the clutch too, but that is ignorance of basic principles.

I was taught that, in a non-ABS vehicle, the fastest way to stop is to lock the brakes and skid to a halt in a straight line.

humyum: do you drive cars with power-assisted steering? Goes without saying that you'd be perfectly capable of doing so. Whatever our skill, ABS, like PAS is just a piece of technology to improve things for us. I can totally understand your confidence at driving without it, but not your insistence in doing without it!

DarkEraser · 25th October 2008, 05:38

Can anyone give details about ABS? How it works? Advantages and dis-advantages over Non-ABS? etc.

S.H.Shankar · 25th October 2008, 08:21

HI Guys, you have hit on a pet subject of mine so forgive a long post.

I am one who believes that an ABS is the second greatest safety invention after the seatbelt! (Purely my opinion only of course.). Before I bought my G4 Innova, I wrote to Toyota telling them what I thought of their policy of not providing ABS at least as an option on lower models, and I did get a reply to the effect that their lower models were selling quite well, thank you!

Well comming to the ABS thing, I believe that the ABS cannot really be simulated while driving a non ABS car because an ABS/EBD vehicle pumps four wheels independantly while the driver in a std car can only do that for all wheels together. Moreover, the ABS gets into the act and releases and re-applies brakes only when it senses that the individual wheels are about to lock, and not until then, thereby maintaining the highest possible braking force. So I wonder if Michael Schumacher himself can come close to the performance of an ABS in a non ABS vehicle.

Secondly, I am not sure whether standing on the brake is the best way to stop in a non ABS car. I have a personal experience which happened recently in my Innova. Purely due to my own stupidity, I performed an overtaking manoeuvre in which I found myself accelerating into the rear end of a running SRTC bus! I hit the brakes hard, tyres went into a skid (typical of the innova) and I was soon well established into the skid with the distance between me and the bus narrowing, when without conscious thought, I pumped the brake once. I immediately felt the tyres bite once again and immediately the deceleration increased drastically and I came out of the situation unscathed! So now I am firmly convinced that pumping helps a lot, but only if you enter a skid.

I suppose that on a street surface with a very high coefficient of friction with the rubber, and where the vehicle is running slow enough that it does not enter into a skid, then maybe a non ABS vehicle will have identical braking distance compared to an ABS vehicle. And in such cases, I suppose that standing on the brakes without pumping would shorten the stopping distance.

Guna · 25th October 2008, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by abhinav.s

But back to the question in hand, I was wondering if the functionality of ABS be simulated on a Non-ABS car? I am not sure of this, but can depressing-releasing the brakes in very short intervals, avoid locking of the wheels and also help in slowing down the vehicle substantially or am i being

'Pumping of break and releasing' cycle happens in a very rapid manner in ABS. About 50 times per second, if I am not mistaken. I dont think it can be simulated by drivers.

kuttapan · 25th October 2008, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by humyum

Totally agree, would love to be in control myself rather than having a computer decide on anything.
Maybe i m old school but i would never buy an ABS vehicle.Have panicked braked a gazzilion times from a lakh and more kilomters i have driven till now and have mastered the art of braking hard/using the maximum distance available and steering away from obstacles all in tandem.

You seem to have a unique gift my friend and a supreme confidence in your abilities. May God be with you.

However, you would do well to take a look at the Fiesta S track demonstration thread to see the effects on a non-ABS car in a wet panic braking situation. Of course, I am sure you have some trick up your sleeve for that eventuality as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guna

'Pumping of break and releasing' cycle happens in a very rapid manner in ABS. About 50 times per second, if I am not mistaken. I dont think it can be simulated by drivers.

Mere mortals cannot, you are right. But as you can see(above) there are some talented individuals who can do things we hitherto thought impossible.

Having said that, I would urge everyone(the mere mortal bunch) with the extra moolah to spend it on ABS, think of it as an insurance. It may come in handy some time.

Shan2nu · 25th October 2008, 11:21

Theres no way a human can replicate what ABS does. It's not only about pumping the brakes 50+times a sec, you also have to make sure you provide the highest possible braking force everytime you pump the brake pedal.

Theres a very thin line between maximum braking and over braking. ABS does not release the brakes completely (such that you lose braking effeciency), it just makes sure that the braking force is always a fraction below lockup point.

PS - All you need to know is that ABS can increase braking distance under certain conditions so don't expect your car to come to a halt each and everytime. Always try n find places where you can steer away from the vehicle/object you're trying to avoid.

Shan2nu

dadu · 25th October 2008, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkEraser

Can anyone give details about ABS? How it works? Advantages and dis-advantages over Non-ABS? etc.

Search for the ABS thread. ABS is like pumping of brakes rapidly, cannot be replicated by using human feet.

headers · 25th October 2008, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by abhinav.s

I was wondering if the functionality of ABS be simulated on a Non-ABS car? I am not sure of this, but can depressing-releasing the brakes in very short intervals, avoid locking of the wheels and also help in slowing down the vehicle substantially

Yes it can / will help in slowing down the vehicle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guna

'Pumping of break and releasing' cycle happens in a very rapid manner in ABS. About 50 times per second, if I am not mistaken. I dont think it can be simulated by drivers.

It cannot be simulated at 50 times per second, but even if you lock the brakes while hard braking, taking your foot of the brakes and braking again will help regain control and reduce braking distance!

humyum · 25th October 2008, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

humyum: do you drive cars with power-assisted steering? Goes without saying that you'd be perfectly capable of doing so. Whatever our skill, ABS, like PAS is just a piece of technology to improve things for us. I can totally understand your confidence at driving without it, but not your insistence in doing without it!

Yes have driven one without power assisted steering as well as without a brake booster for around 5 years.A maruti 800,90% highway driven with 100+ speeds most of the time and now drive a 2005 maruti zen which has both.
Yes i get your point,it might be to improve things but like i said maybe i am old school and would not like an ABS driven car, as in life or death I want to be in control of it or rather not in control of it

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuttapan

You seem to have a unique gift my friend and a supreme confidence in your abilities. May God be with you.

However, you would do well to take a look at the Fiesta S track demonstration thread to see the effects on a non-ABS car in a wet panic braking situation. Of course, I am sure you have some trick up your sleeve for that eventuality as well.

Hey its not a unique gift or supreme confidence,its just a limit I draw from where the machine and man will be in total control.Never will cross that and need no ABS to stay within that

Prowler · 25th October 2008, 12:51

I agree with Humyum about not depending too much on technology. I have driven an Amby near a mountain pass with no brakes. The brake light switch connected to the Brake circuit had failed and as a result, the brake fluid had leaked out. It is not the modern car where you have dual circuit brake system.
I have come out unscathed because I relied on gears and pumping up the brake every time I had to stop. I traveled almost 50 km before I get to a workshop on the highway.

Anyway, all I am saying is do not be complacent that your car has all the gizmos to take you through. Just develop your own driving skills and be prepared for the time when something goes wrong.

I wish we can all have some place where we can practice Technical Driving.

snaronikar · 25th October 2008, 15:06

Ummm...all said and done, the car requires ABS during the driving at high speeds and driving during rains. I usually pump the brakes if I am going at speed and somebody comes in between. This will cetainly avoid the locking of tyres and will reduce the speed instantly. Yes, it also required certain amount of driving skills in these kind of situations.

Coming back to the point that functionality of ABS be simulated in non-ABS vehicles, I feel not. The reason being explained by others in above posts.

Pls refer to the series of threads with ABS. You will find the answer yourself.

25th October 2008, 00:03	#1
abhinav.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,774 Thanked: 1,272 Times	Can the functionality of ABS be simulated on Non-ABS cars? Hello everyone!!! Phew! After a nerve wrecking, physically demanding, tension filled 3-4 weeks, I am back to my favourite hang out. God did I miss this place. Well to cut the very long story short, I am back after winning a property litigation with great difficulty and a great deal of money! All the savings planned for the OHC/Baleno went into feeding the lawyers to help them get a better set of wheels probably! But back to the question in hand, I was wondering if the functionality of ABS be simulated on a Non-ABS car? I am not sure of this, but can depressing-releasing the brakes in very short intervals, avoid locking of the wheels and also help in slowing down the vehicle substantially or am i being
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 00:26	#2
pranavt Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,682 Thanked: 641 Times View My Garage	Releasing the brakes as soon as you feel your tyres locking is pretty much what ABS does anyways. But you need to be very very experienced and should be able to judge the grip available in milliseconds. And then there's the thing about not panicking and being quick to release the brakes even though it goes against conventional right-side-brain thinking. I've been through a couple of these locked-tyres moments and they've been really scary. Of course, if you have some road available in any steerable direction, your first move should be to start turning the wheel in that direction without applying the brakes at all. If they tyres do lock at any moment, it becomes much simpler to the brain to just release the brakes. YMMV, and it's always safer to drive slower on those roads where you don't know the grip levels. Also, congratulations on winning your litigation case.
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 00:42	#3
abhinav.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,774 Thanked: 1,272 Times	Bingo Pranavt, thats what i thought it to be. I have been through only 1 such situation where the wheels locked when i braked suddenly. I dont know what made me do it, but as soon as i felt the wheels locking, i let go of the brakes for a fraction of a second and depressed it again & kept repeating it till the car slowed down to a more handleable speed. I was able to come out of the situation unscathed. And like you said, during panic braking, the brain might not pass on the right signals and we just tend to slam the brakes. Thanks for your wishes! Last edited by abhinav.s : 25th October 2008 at 00:43.
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 01:04	#4
humyum Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 2,751 Thanked: 5,424 Times	Totally agree, would love to be in control myself rather than having a computer decide on anything. Maybe i m old school but i would never buy an ABS vehicle.Have panicked braked a gazzilion times from a lakh and more kilomters i have driven till now and have mastered the art of braking hard/using the maximum distance available and steering away from obstacles all in tandem.
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 02:05	#5
Thad E Ginathom Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai Posts: 10,998 Thanked: 26,415 Times	Most of us mortals will probably do one thing when the time comes: stand on the brake. Even lesser mortals might stand on the clutch too, but that is ignorance of basic principles. I was taught that, in a non-ABS vehicle, the fastest way to stop is to lock the brakes and skid to a halt in a straight line. humyum: do you drive cars with power-assisted steering? Goes without saying that you'd be perfectly capable of doing so. Whatever our skill, ABS, like PAS is just a piece of technology to improve things for us. I can totally understand your confidence at driving without it, but not your insistence in doing without it!
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 05:38	#6
DarkEraser BHPian Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 73 Thanked: 5 Times	Can anyone give details about ABS? How it works? Advantages and dis-advantages over Non-ABS? etc.
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 08:21	#7
S.H.Shankar BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Thiruvananthapuram Posts: 25 Thanked: 4 Times	HI Guys, you have hit on a pet subject of mine so forgive a long post. I am one who believes that an ABS is the second greatest safety invention after the seatbelt! (Purely my opinion only of course.). Before I bought my G4 Innova, I wrote to Toyota telling them what I thought of their policy of not providing ABS at least as an option on lower models, and I did get a reply to the effect that their lower models were selling quite well, thank you! Well comming to the ABS thing, I believe that the ABS cannot really be simulated while driving a non ABS car because an ABS/EBD vehicle pumps four wheels independantly while the driver in a std car can only do that for all wheels together. Moreover, the ABS gets into the act and releases and re-applies brakes only when it senses that the individual wheels are about to lock, and not until then, thereby maintaining the highest possible braking force. So I wonder if Michael Schumacher himself can come close to the performance of an ABS in a non ABS vehicle. Secondly, I am not sure whether standing on the brake is the best way to stop in a non ABS car. I have a personal experience which happened recently in my Innova. Purely due to my own stupidity, I performed an overtaking manoeuvre in which I found myself accelerating into the rear end of a running SRTC bus! I hit the brakes hard, tyres went into a skid (typical of the innova) and I was soon well established into the skid with the distance between me and the bus narrowing, when without conscious thought, I pumped the brake once. I immediately felt the tyres bite once again and immediately the deceleration increased drastically and I came out of the situation unscathed! So now I am firmly convinced that pumping helps a lot, but only if you enter a skid. I suppose that on a street surface with a very high coefficient of friction with the rubber, and where the vehicle is running slow enough that it does not enter into a skid, then maybe a non ABS vehicle will have identical braking distance compared to an ABS vehicle. And in such cases, I suppose that standing on the brakes without pumping would shorten the stopping distance.
	(2) Thanks

25th October 2008, 11:21	#10
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 125 Times View My Garage	Theres no way a human can replicate what ABS does. It's not only about pumping the brakes 50+times a sec, you also have to make sure you provide the highest possible braking force everytime you pump the brake pedal. Theres a very thin line between maximum braking and over braking. ABS does not release the brakes completely (such that you lose braking effeciency), it just makes sure that the braking force is always a fraction below lockup point. PS - All you need to know is that ABS can increase braking distance under certain conditions so don't expect your car to come to a halt each and everytime. Always try n find places where you can steer away from the vehicle/object you're trying to avoid. Shan2nu Last edited by Shan2nu : 25th October 2008 at 11:24.
	(1) Thanks

25th October 2008, 12:51	#14
Prowler BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Madras Posts: 774 Thanked: 1,323 Times	I agree with Humyum about not depending too much on technology. I have driven an Amby near a mountain pass with no brakes. The brake light switch connected to the Brake circuit had failed and as a result, the brake fluid had leaked out. It is not the modern car where you have dual circuit brake system. I have come out unscathed because I relied on gears and pumping up the brake every time I had to stop. I traveled almost 50 km before I get to a workshop on the highway. Anyway, all I am saying is do not be complacent that your car has all the gizmos to take you through. Just develop your own driving skills and be prepared for the time when something goes wrong. I wish we can all have some place where we can practice Technical Driving.
	() Thanks

25th October 2008, 15:06	#15
snaronikar Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bengaluru Posts: 2,845 Thanked: 29 Times View My Garage	Ummm...all said and done, the car requires ABS during the driving at high speeds and driving during rains. I usually pump the brakes if I am going at speed and somebody comes in between. This will cetainly avoid the locking of tyres and will reduce the speed instantly. Yes, it also required certain amount of driving skills in these kind of situations. Coming back to the point that functionality of ABS be simulated in non-ABS vehicles, I feel not. The reason being explained by others in above posts. Pls refer to the series of threads with ABS. You will find the answer yourself.
	() Thanks