About chips and mods

tsk1979 · 30th May 2005, 11:25

Hi,
There are a lot of posts about tuning boxes and chips for boosting power in cars. I was wondering that is all that really needed? Most engines run at 7500rpm max in stock cars. For that kind of rpm a 16bit computer is enough. If you actually look at the peak CPU utilization you will see that with a 16 bit computer its around 50-70% and in case of 32bit it is 40%. why 32bit. The cost difference between 16bit and 32bit is almost zilch and 32bit sound great in adverts. Infact in cars like santro/zen etc the CPU utilization hardly exceeds 30%! So why need that extra computer. Why not run a better software on the same 32bit computer. The results may not be that mind boggling, but they will be definately significant. This way the hardware cost will be zero.
This fact I came to know from a Bosch software engineer who was on linux channel on irc. I got into a long conversation with him. He told me that in low end cars, the CPU utilization is so low that a better software algorithm can give around 20-30% increase in power. Then I asked him why dont manufacturers do that. He said that while manufacturing lot of factors are important like FE, engine life etc., So manufacturers arive at the best solution. Increasing power will take a hit on FE, which may appeal to a minority, but will take away the majority. In low end cars FE/running cost etc., is more important than power. In case of sports cars already the software is tuned for performance. It is still possible to increase power but that will affect engine life. So the manufacturers need to strike a balance.

Now my question here is to the modifiers. Has anybody looked into just software upgrades? For example Tata Indigo petrol relies a lot on software for better power. TDi indigo has a better torque curve by adjusting gearing and better software. Anyone tried to load a different software for the octavia/crdi to give better power. Such a mod will not require any extra parts, and since our workshops are not so wise it will not even void the warranty!

iceman91 · 30th May 2005, 11:37

see any chip mod is altering the fuel and timing map...thats all. what happens is cars when designed are actually capable of much more power but then when goverment laws and engine reliabilty becomes and issue they tune/detuune it to a certain figure.
what these chip mods do is get more out of the engine but this is limited to the engine's design..after a certain level is achieved by a chip for more power you have to move onto other mods.

now coming to software change...it is locked by the company..not somethign you can plug into youtr computer's USB port and change the settings. they have to be done by an authorised guy or someone who has the equipment required. secondly if altered it voids the warranty since your service centre will get to know. they are getting wiser now!!!

tsk1979 · 30th May 2005, 11:52

If people are willing to put an extra chip and void the warranty then i guess its not a big task to break the lock and void the warranty. Its easier to the latter i guess. Why buy a 50K chip when a software hack will get you almost the same thing for free?

iceman91 · 30th May 2005, 11:54

a software hack is not free.....can u please tell me who is willing to do it for free!!!!
if it works well am willing to line up cars....
people charge anywhere from 100 to 500 US$ for a software reprogram.

tsk1979 · 30th May 2005, 12:13

I meant free as in speech, not beer

LOL
Getting back to seriousness, the hack is a one time cost for a modder. For example you buy it for 200$=10000Rs. Then you can sell it to people here(120BHp octavia) for 4000 each. 35K may not get you many buyers but 4K certainly will.

iceman91 · 30th May 2005, 13:16

its not a one time cost. the remap has to be done to suit the mods he is running in the car. every change in stage will require a remap again hence the stand alone ecms are preferred.
also you cannot buy it for 200$ that is the charge for remapping your existing one!!!
also the chip for a diesel car is 30+k as introduced by turboindia and its removal will make the car stock again.
whereas once you remap the ecm it is no longer stock you gotta remap it again to bring it to stock. i have both a remapped ecm as well as a stand alone. for different needs.
if someone told you that he can remap a company ecm at home i dont think its possible else by now DOM would be making his OWN ecms!!!
it is very very tough and the software and hardware is very expensive for it..not something you can "hack" or buy at downloads.com

chetanhanda · 4th July 2005, 10:55

hey !
what about piggy back devices ? they sit in between the oxygen sensor and the ECU, and fool the ECU in thinking that it needs to supply more fuel as per its lookup tables ...and these are not that expensive(bcoz they dont do much) I have seen lots of these being in UK/US.. they are mostly targetted at Balenos ,vitaras , jiminys etc - the suzuki range.. they wont work for diesel/turbo engines...Its basically a resistor ....
I think someone needs to try these out in India...

Boom Shiva · 4th July 2005, 11:05

Also, where can we get all this done in Mumbai and for how much?

speed0mania · 7th July 2005, 00:02

hey i got one of those from uk !! ive snapped it on a zen !! but i didn't see much power gain at lower rpms !! only at higher speed long stretches do you feel the difference in power!! but ive heard works great on balenos!! if anyone needs any tell me i have a source!!

Moderator Note: Please read the rules of the board before posting. "SMS" language is not permitted on this board. I have edited your post this time as it's your first, but in future take some effort and write complete words if you want to continue posting.

Mpower · 7th July 2005, 02:20

Is yours an MPFi Zen? What is the brand of the chip that you got?

chetanhanda · 13th July 2005, 11:05

for how much you got that system ? was it a complicated or simple process ?

autopsyche · 13th July 2005, 11:57

iceman is pretty much correct with the info about remapping especially that it isnt a one time cost, thats what a modder would charge per car, basically swapping programs on the flash rom.

I am selling and using a different sort of a piggyback the skoda 1.9TDi. its a module hookup just before the injector pump. Its amplifying the ecm signal to the pump by a certain amount, gives me about 20%-25% added performance. And especially at higher RPM's. Like where a normal skoda would start lagging beyond 3500rpm, this one pulls up very easily to 4500rpm. The engine does tend to become smoky if u floor it hard but thats natural. Costs roughly about Rs.36k

Arush

GTO · 13th July 2005, 12:55

Quote:

Like where a normal skoda would start lagging beyond 3500rpm, this one pulls up very easily to 4500rpm. The engine does tend to become smoky if u floor it hard but thats natural. Costs roughly about Rs.36k

Sounds familiar, Rtech? Arush, are you using the Petes Power Box?

GTO

Rtech · 13th July 2005, 13:22

I think he's using another box.

I was worried about the increased smoke as well, but I'm happy to say there was none. That came as a pleasant surprise.

turboindia · 13th July 2005, 13:41

The Pete's tuning box will not smoke. a car smokes when you dump more fuel than what is required and that is where the processor comes into play. The RISC processor on teh Pete's box works perfectly and the remapping is done without a flaw. At teh normal setting we dont have a single car that smokes unless it already used to smoke before.

30th May 2005, 11:25	#1
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	About chips and mods Hi, There are a lot of posts about tuning boxes and chips for boosting power in cars. I was wondering that is all that really needed? Most engines run at 7500rpm max in stock cars. For that kind of rpm a 16bit computer is enough. If you actually look at the peak CPU utilization you will see that with a 16 bit computer its around 50-70% and in case of 32bit it is 40%. why 32bit. The cost difference between 16bit and 32bit is almost zilch and 32bit sound great in adverts. Infact in cars like santro/zen etc the CPU utilization hardly exceeds 30%! So why need that extra computer. Why not run a better software on the same 32bit computer. The results may not be that mind boggling, but they will be definately significant. This way the hardware cost will be zero. This fact I came to know from a Bosch software engineer who was on linux channel on irc. I got into a long conversation with him. He told me that in low end cars, the CPU utilization is so low that a better software algorithm can give around 20-30% increase in power. Then I asked him why dont manufacturers do that. He said that while manufacturing lot of factors are important like FE, engine life etc., So manufacturers arive at the best solution. Increasing power will take a hit on FE, which may appeal to a minority, but will take away the majority. In low end cars FE/running cost etc., is more important than power. In case of sports cars already the software is tuned for performance. It is still possible to increase power but that will affect engine life. So the manufacturers need to strike a balance. Now my question here is to the modifiers. Has anybody looked into just software upgrades? For example Tata Indigo petrol relies a lot on software for better power. TDi indigo has a better torque curve by adjusting gearing and better software. Anyone tried to load a different software for the octavia/crdi to give better power. Such a mod will not require any extra parts, and since our workshops are not so wise it will not even void the warranty!
	() Thanks

30th May 2005, 11:37	#2
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 34 Times View My Garage	see any chip mod is altering the fuel and timing map...thats all. what happens is cars when designed are actually capable of much more power but then when goverment laws and engine reliabilty becomes and issue they tune/detuune it to a certain figure. what these chip mods do is get more out of the engine but this is limited to the engine's design..after a certain level is achieved by a chip for more power you have to move onto other mods. now coming to software change...it is locked by the company..not somethign you can plug into youtr computer's USB port and change the settings. they have to be done by an authorised guy or someone who has the equipment required. secondly if altered it voids the warranty since your service centre will get to know. they are getting wiser now!!!
	() Thanks

30th May 2005, 11:52	#3
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	If people are willing to put an extra chip and void the warranty then i guess its not a big task to break the lock and void the warranty. Its easier to the latter i guess. Why buy a 50K chip when a software hack will get you almost the same thing for free?
	() Thanks

30th May 2005, 11:54	#4
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 34 Times View My Garage	a software hack is not free.....can u please tell me who is willing to do it for free!!!! if it works well am willing to line up cars.... people charge anywhere from 100 to 500 US$ for a software reprogram.
	() Thanks

30th May 2005, 12:13	#5
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,825 Times View My Garage	I meant free as in speech, not beer LOL Getting back to seriousness, the hack is a one time cost for a modder. For example you buy it for 200$=10000Rs. Then you can sell it to people here(120BHp octavia) for 4000 each. 35K may not get you many buyers but 4K certainly will.
	() Thanks

30th May 2005, 13:16	#6
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 34 Times View My Garage	its not a one time cost. the remap has to be done to suit the mods he is running in the car. every change in stage will require a remap again hence the stand alone ecms are preferred. also you cannot buy it for 200$ that is the charge for remapping your existing one!!! also the chip for a diesel car is 30+k as introduced by turboindia and its removal will make the car stock again. whereas once you remap the ecm it is no longer stock you gotta remap it again to bring it to stock. i have both a remapped ecm as well as a stand alone. for different needs. if someone told you that he can remap a company ecm at home i dont think its possible else by now DOM would be making his OWN ecms!!! it is very very tough and the software and hardware is very expensive for it..not something you can "hack" or buy at downloads.com Last edited by iceman91 : 30th May 2005 at 13:19.
	() Thanks

4th July 2005, 10:55	#7
chetanhanda BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 887 Thanked: 49 Times View My Garage	hey ! what about piggy back devices ? they sit in between the oxygen sensor and the ECU, and fool the ECU in thinking that it needs to supply more fuel as per its lookup tables ...and these are not that expensive(bcoz they dont do much) I have seen lots of these being in UK/US.. they are mostly targetted at Balenos ,vitaras , jiminys etc - the suzuki range.. they wont work for diesel/turbo engines...Its basically a resistor .... I think someone needs to try these out in India...
	() Thanks

4th July 2005, 11:05	#8
Boom Shiva BANNED Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,055 Thanked: 18 Times	Also, where can we get all this done in Mumbai and for how much?
	() Thanks

7th July 2005, 00:02	#9
speed0mania BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: new delhi Posts: 463 Thanked: 7 Times View My Garage	hey i got one of those from uk !! ive snapped it on a zen !! but i didn't see much power gain at lower rpms !! only at higher speed long stretches do you feel the difference in power!! but ive heard works great on balenos!! if anyone needs any tell me i have a source!! Moderator Note: Please read the rules of the board before posting. "SMS" language is not permitted on this board. I have edited your post this time as it's your first, but in future take some effort and write complete words if you want to continue posting. Last edited by Rtech : 7th July 2005 at 10:11.
	() Thanks

7th July 2005, 02:20	#10
Mpower Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 10,409 Thanked: 1,730 Times View My Garage	Is yours an MPFi Zen? What is the brand of the chip that you got?
	() Thanks

13th July 2005, 11:05	#11
chetanhanda BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 887 Thanked: 49 Times View My Garage	for how much you got that system ? was it a complicated or simple process ?
	() Thanks

13th July 2005, 11:57	#12
autopsyche Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Delhi, Indi Posts: 1,519 Thanked: 33 Times View My Garage	iceman is pretty much correct with the info about remapping especially that it isnt a one time cost, thats what a modder would charge per car, basically swapping programs on the flash rom. I am selling and using a different sort of a piggyback the skoda 1.9TDi. its a module hookup just before the injector pump. Its amplifying the ecm signal to the pump by a certain amount, gives me about 20%-25% added performance. And especially at higher RPM's. Like where a normal skoda would start lagging beyond 3500rpm, this one pulls up very easily to 4500rpm. The engine does tend to become smoky if u floor it hard but thats natural. Costs roughly about Rs.36k Arush
	() Thanks

13th July 2005, 13:22	#14
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	I think he's using another box. I was worried about the increased smoke as well, but I'm happy to say there was none. That came as a pleasant surprise.
	() Thanks

13th July 2005, 13:41	#15
turboindia BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cochin Posts: 253 Thanked: 4 Times	The Pete's tuning box will not smoke. a car smokes when you dump more fuel than what is required and that is where the processor comes into play. The RISC processor on teh Pete's box works perfectly and the remapping is done without a flaw. At teh normal setting we dont have a single car that smokes unless it already used to smoke before.
	() Thanks