[shuvc]

How is an Automatic car towed if it does not start and is in P?

[manim]

Originally Posted by shuvc

How is an Automatic car towed if it does not start and is in P?

Shift to 'N'.

It can be shifted to 'N' from 'P' without the engine running, but the key must be turned on and the brakes must be pressed.
I remember reading this somewhere in my Civic's owner's-manual.

PS: I tried this in my civic, the shift lever can be shifted to any position without the engine running, but key turned on and the brakes pressed.

The key can be turned off to preserve battery (but cannot be removed) after shifting to 'N'. This is the mode for towing.

[supremeBaleno]

@shuvc, on the A*-AT, even without key inserted or brake pressed, we can shift from P to N (or any other gear), by depressing the ShiftLock button. And then tow the car.

[shuvc]

Thanks. A somewhat related question now.

Sometimes in crowded parking lots (offices, road kerb) the attendants want the cars to be kept in neutral. So that they can push it back and forth to optimize parking space utilization.

For any AT, this is not possible, right? The car will stay 'locked' in the position it is parked?

[supremeBaleno]

^^^Normally yes. Since in AT key can be removed only in P, we cannot leave the car in neutral like we do with MT. Or you would need to leave the key in the car, which is risky.

Don't know about other cars, but I see a "workaround" for the above in the A*-AT. Put car in P, remove key, use ShiftLock button to move gear-lever to N. And we should be OK.

[supremeBaleno]

Co-incidence that today I checked-out and TD-ed a 2007 NHC-AT for a friend. And remembering this thread, I found a similar workaround for it too - Put car in P, remove key, insert key in the slot near the gear-lever (this is the equivalent of shift-lock in A*-AT), move the lever to N, remove key & lock the car. Now you have the car in Neutral for the parking-lot guy.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@4x4addict; Welcome to the discussion. We are discussing a CVT not a regular AT. The pictures (please check) clearly show a 4-speed

So your theory is that just because you don't find a D4 you think it is a 4 Speed Auto? Then going by your logic, the Santro automatic should be a 3 speed gearbox since it has only(D)2 and (D1) L. The primary reason for the lower gear slots is to hold the vehicle from shifting beyond the gear you put it in. It is not required to give a manual slot for every gear ratio.

In the Santro AT the 4th gear is over drive and there is a separate OD off button not shift to 4th gear (over drive gear).

Scorpio AT has 6 gears but no manual override control except for a switch to engage two modes. To sum up, looking at the shifter figuring out the number of ratios in the transmission is not the most intelligent thing to do.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

In the Santro AT the 4th gear is over drive and there is a separate OD off button not shift to 4th gear (over drive gear).

Thanks for confirming my point - I always call the Santro / i10 AT as a 3+1 and not a true four speed. Using an OD button to add a gear has its problems, the most notable being that you do not get engine braking until you hit 2. Most unfortunate if you have to go downhill for a considerable distance.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by joslicx

I was under the impression that you would be able to know the gear (but then as its CVT probably this does not mean anything). Still I dont know what would be the use of having the P R N D 2 1 on the cluster? You are unlikely to be shifting the stick in an AT while its moving (or very rarely you'd do that).

There are situations where you require engine braking, esp going downhill if you are not to cook your brakes and risk losing them.

In these conditions you need these settings. Also, in situations you may wish to over ride the AT esp for better acceleration you again need these. D3 means you get AT between 3, 2, and 1.

[Harbir]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Thanks for confirming my point - I always call the Santro / i10 AT as a 3+1 and not a true four speed. Using an OD button to add a gear has its problems, the most notable being that you do not get engine braking until you hit 2. Most unfortunate if you have to go downhill for a considerable distance.

I admit to being confused by this. If there are 4 discreet ratios, its a true 4 speed, regardless of how the ratios are selected.

you don't use the OD button to "add" a gear. you use it to lock out the highest ratio, this is primarily done for uphill sections. Going uphill, an automatic can start "hunting". It'll rev up in 3rd and decide it can shift up so it does. then it finds 4th inadequate, so it shifts down, and the cycle repeats over and over, 3-4-3-4-3-4-3. To stop this from happening, the O/D off switch is provided.

It can also be used to provide engine braking, by forcing the transmission to stay out of 4th, but pressing a button is no different from moving the lever from D to 3.

In fact, D,2,1 + O/D switch is EXACTLY the same situation as a D,3,2,1

If you're going to need 2nd gear to provide engine braking, you'll need to move the lever to "2" in both cases.

4 speed with O/D is not 3+1.

Originally Posted by joslicx

Well Harbir the point is Hyundai is able to sell i20 as a premium hatch (and for a premium price) while a premium company like Honda is not!

Traditionally people in India have willingly paid premium prices to own Hondas. I was just wondering what went wrong with the Jazz. I agree with you that Jazz is far more sophisticated than the i20. But that should have meant that the premium hatch market should have lapped it by doves like i20. But that didnt happen.

I think the biggest culprit is Hondas themselves. They hardly advertise it (looks like they dont want to sell it!!!). And the lack of an AT in Jazz is very much telling. An AT Jazz (like the one on City) would have helped it sell a bit more. I'd have bought it instead of the Vento if it was available!

The jazz didn't do well because its high import content made it a very pricey car for a 1.2L hatchback, about 8lacs OTR, and people didn't like its unusual looks. Just around the time Honda made the move to reduce price with greater localization, Honda's parts supply operation in Thailand was hit by floods, disrupting producing and stretching jazz waiting lists to 8 months plus.

The i20 is localized and therefore in the price range that Indians consider appropriate for cars of this class.

Honda eventually got the production of the Jazz going again, but production remains low and waiting lists remain. I suspect that its because Honda cannot make much money on the car at the low price because it is inherently a superior car to the i20 and costs more money to make, but if it has to be sold at the same price, it won't make enough money and it remains logical for Honda to use its capacity to manufacture the Brio instead which can generate much larger volumes.

By the way, I drove from Chandigarh to delhi yesterday and kept a look out on all the i20s I saw. they were all Magna or Sportz, no Asta. Most were CRDI and I didn't see any Sportz Petrol. I would say the number of petrol i20s around 6lacs price point on the road is a smallish fraction of the i20 sales.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I admit to being confused by this. If there are 4 discreet ratios, its a true 4 speed, regardless of how the ratios are selected.

.....
It can also be used to provide engine braking, by forcing the transmission to stay out of 4th, but pressing a button is no different from moving the lever from D to 3.

In fact, D,2,1 + O/D switch is EXACTLY the same situation as a D,3,2,1

If you're going to need 2nd gear to provide engine braking, you'll need to move the lever to "2" in both cases.

D3, 2and 1 all have engine braking,as against 2, 1 only in a 3+1. So you will be revving higher in the latter. It is a three speed with a fourth grafted on.

I have had a Santro AT for 7+ years so hopefully do have some idea. It shifts to 4 only around 60kph!

Also, a CVT with four speeds is functionally like a 4-speed since the rev range for any setting is limited. It then executes a silent shift when required.

May I add one more point a CVT is more fuel efficient that a normal AT, and lighter. Of course DSG is excepted. Better normal ATs (City/Civic) have a Torque Converter lock which bypasses the TC above a speed, removing its losses.

I think when discussing pricing of the AT we have to really look at the mark-up above the corresponding MT, even more than the absolute price.

I know I am going for the V AT. I hope the S (and even the E) comes with ABS & airbags.

[Harbir]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

D3, 2and 1 all have engine braking,as against 2, 1 only in a 3+1. So you will be revving higher in the latter. It is a three speed with a fourth grafted on.

I have had a Santro AT for 7+ years so hopefully do have some idea. It shifts to 4 only around 60kph!

I still don't understand this. 4 ratios are 4 ratios. What do you mean by "three speed with a fourth grafted on?"

What is the mechanical difference? Specifically, what mechanical difference does it make whether 4th is locked out by putting the lever in 3 or whether it is locked out by activating the O/D off button?

The extent of engine braking is a matter of the ratio of the gears and the torque converter's lock up ratio ( how much slack there is in it). It has nothing to do with whether the gear ratio is selected (or locked out) with a lever or a button.

[Mpower]

A CVT with only 4 spds (preset?) is a huge waste of money & effort. If you had the choice of 7 or 8 why would you set only 4? Ridiculous !

Originally Posted by sgiitk

D3, 2and 1 all have engine braking,as against 2, 1 only in a 3+1. So you will be revving higher in the latter. It is a three speed with a fourth grafted on.

I have had a Santro AT for 7+ years so hopefully do have some idea. It shifts to 4 only around 60kph!

If they took a 3 speed and grafted on a 4th, then its a 4 speed. Lots of 5s are being converted to 6 speeds for FE boost.

That was the vacuum control era. Nowadays, with electronic controls, the transmission can figure out the driving conditions & what gear to stay in.... and you don't find the 'OD off' button anymore.

[Harbir]

Is the i10 AT box vacuum controlled?

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I still don't understand this. 4 ratios are 4 ratios.

The extent of engine braking is a matter of the ratio of the gears and the torque converter's lock up ratio ( how much slack there is in it). It has nothing to do with whether the gear ratio is selected (or locked out) with a lever or a button.

4-ratios in a 3+1 are 4 ratios, except things like engine braking will be available only in the 'normal' part of the box. Since 3 is the highest ratio, it will be there on 2 & 1 only.

In an AT when driven normally there is no engine braking, the wheels freewheel if the engine speed is lower than what corresponds to the road speed. This is done to conserve fuel. It is fine in normal road driving, except that the brake pads wear out faster. In fact today some cars (Dzire CS AT for one, I think) come with an uprated braking system (rear discs) for the AT.

Having once had a scary time when not knowing about engine braking, we managed to overheat and lost the brakes when descending in the French Alps. Only going up a slip road (which was God sent) saved us.