starting problems

amitoj · 5th August 2005, 14:00

hmm... hrag got me wondering about the points ignition so i looked it up a bit. Points, in an ignition system, are the switch that controls the flow of current to the ignition coil. And the ignition coil is the one that produces a magnetic field strong enough to generate high voltages for the spark plugs. Am i right so far? So in my case, if everything else is fine, then either the points are off their correct timing, thus the ignition coil takes ages to build the magnetic field... or the ignition coil itself has gone bad and needs to be changed.

Psycho, Ice, revv, hrag and other experts... is this a possibility?

I just now called up the service station and the station's manager said that even that service battery is probably weak. He is quite confident that its a battery problem! Said he will give another battery to try out today!

speedsatya · 5th August 2005, 19:50

starter problems

MOTOR NOT RUNNING

MEANS NO OPERATING SOUND OF MAGNETIC CLUTCH

clutch pedal not depressed fully
battery run down
battery voltage too low due to battery deterioration
poor contact in battery terminal connection
losse grounding
fuse set loose or blown
poor contacting action of ignition switch
lead wire coupler loose in place
open ckt between ignition switch an dmagnetic switch
open ckt in pull-in coil-------------replace magnetic switch
poor sliding of plunger

MOTOR NOT RUNNINGmeans operating sound of magnetic switch heard

battery down
voltage low
loos ecable conections

burnt main contact connections or poor contacting action of magnetic switch---replace mag.sw.

brsuhes are seating poorly or worn down----------repair/replace

weakened brush spring--replace
burnt commutator----[b]r
poor grounding of fiels coil--repair

layer shrt ckt of armature---r

crankshaft rotation obstructed ----repair

starting motor running but too slow(small torque)

i f battery an d wiring are satisfactory ,inspect starting motor

insufficient contact of magnetic switch main contacts---replace
layer short circuit of armature---r
disconnected,burnt or worn commutator--repair or R
poor groundiing of field coil
worn brushes
weakened brush springs-------replace springs
burnt or abnormally worn end bushings

starting motor running ,but not cranking engine

worn pinion tip------------replace overrunning clutch
poor sliding of over running clutch
overrunning clutch slipping
worn teeth of ring gear----------replace flywheel

NOISE

abnormally worn bush
worn pinion or worn teeth of ring gear-------------replace pinion or flywheelpoor sliding of pinion(failure in return movement)

STARTING MOTOR DOES NOT STOP

fused contact points of magnetic switch----replace
sht ckt between turns of magnetic switch coil ---replace

failure of returning action in ignition switch---replace

amitoj · 9th August 2005, 10:44

Ok, so it seems the problem is solved. But if someone can help me understand what it was, it would be great. I couldnt make much sense out of wot the mechanic was saying in his kannad hindi.

There was nothing wrong with the battery. there was nothing wrong with the carburettor. there was nothing wrong with the fuel pump, fuel pump relay, fuel line. nothing wrong with the spark plugs and the wires.

Yesterday i got the mechanics to come to my place where the car was parked. the mechanic checked all the above things. confirmed that they were all ok. Then he opened the top of the engine and asked his helper to push the car back slowly while its in reverse. he looked at the movement of the rocker arms closely.. confirmed that it was a timing problem and he will need to take a closer look at the timing belt to see if any teeth are missing, and also look at the bearings to check if there is any slippage. So they towed the car to the service station. There, he tinkered with the rocker arms.. did some adjustments and said that its fixed and handed over the car to me. He said the timing belt was ok and there was nothing wrong with the bearings as well. With tons of apprehension, i took the car from the garage back to work. But there was a noticeable improvement in the car's response.

So today morning, when i turned the key in the ignition, it took barely 1 second to start up! Needless to say i was as happy as a kid in a candy bar.

Can someone help me understand what was wrong here?

Cheers
Amitoj

Psycho · 9th August 2005, 16:15

Looks like your timing belt tensioner was loose and he had readjusted the tensioner and the rockers... however you just lost the advance setting we did

amitoj · 9th August 2005, 16:16

well, he was actually kind enough to reset it to its original (modified) position :-)
although the fuel mix isnt as rich as it used to be.

Psycho · 9th August 2005, 16:32

drop by sometime will do it again ...

amitoj · 9th August 2005, 16:38

hehe... this time i might get greedy for more.

srasania · 9th August 2005, 22:31

guys..since this is a discussion on starting problems,just wanted to know - howcome there is no Choke on the New Honda City?..i bought NHC CVT 1 1/2 months back,and have a 1999 Esteem LX-which has a choke for cold starting.
Also,wanted to know some technical stuff- why does it help if we pump the accelerator a couple of times before starting the engine?..do we have to keep the key position in the On position when we pump the accelerator,so,should it be in the Complete Off position while pumping the accelerator?
thanks,
sr

amitoj · 10th August 2005, 10:11

I guess only carb cars have chokes and NHC does not have a carb engine. Your esteem most probably does. I guess choke allows more air fuel mix to go into the engine and thus helps in starting it up in cold conditions. I have noticed that whenever i pull the choke, my accelerator pedal gets pressed down a bit as well.
As for pumping the accelerator, i know its a good practice for my car... dont really know why.
All the above is a layman's view/understanding. I will now wait for more expert opinions...

Cheers
Amitoj

heavy_foot · 10th August 2005, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by amitoj

well, he was actually kind enough to reset it to its original (modified) position :-)
although the fuel mix isnt as rich as it used to be.

what is this orignal modified position and how did u get the air/fuel mix rich?.....and how does it help?? can you post a picture of the position of the tensioner and the rockers.

thanks

Revvhead · 10th August 2005, 23:04

Only carb engines have chokes
In MPFI engines, the ECU automatically gives more fuel on the start
(which is why you see high revs on start which slowly decreaseas the engine warms up)
Pumping the pedal in a Carb car basicalyy pumps more fuel into the carb, therefore it starts better, carb cars dont usually dont start too well on idle.
But be careful, dont pump too much else you'll flood the engine(carb) and will then have to sit & wait for the fuel to evaporate before you can start

On MPFI cars, do not start by pumping the pedal, coz as i said, the ECu is programmed to start in a particular manner, using the pedal messes it up. So dont, as i recall most Maruti's have a sticker saying not to do that!

heavy_foot · 12th August 2005, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy_foot

what is this orignal modified position and how did u get the air/fuel mix rich?.....and how does it help?? can you post a picture of the position of the tensioner and the rockers.

thanks

can any one answer this?

amitoj · 13th August 2005, 01:44

ummm... contact psycho.. is all i can say pal!

Mpower · 13th August 2005, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

Looks like your timing belt tensioner was loose and he had readjusted the tensioner and the rockers... however you just lost the advance setting we did

Advance? for igniting timing or valve timing?...or both. Distributor runs off of the camshaft if I recall.

5th August 2005, 14:00	#16
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	hmm... hrag got me wondering about the points ignition so i looked it up a bit. Points, in an ignition system, are the switch that controls the flow of current to the ignition coil. And the ignition coil is the one that produces a magnetic field strong enough to generate high voltages for the spark plugs. Am i right so far? So in my case, if everything else is fine, then either the points are off their correct timing, thus the ignition coil takes ages to build the magnetic field... or the ignition coil itself has gone bad and needs to be changed. Psycho, Ice, revv, hrag and other experts... is this a possibility? I just now called up the service station and the station's manager said that even that service battery is probably weak. He is quite confident that its a battery problem! Said he will give another battery to try out today! Last edited by amitoj : 5th August 2005 at 14:06.
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 19:50	#17
speedsatya Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: bangalore/manga Posts: 3,169 Thanked: 738 Times View My Garage	from maruti service manual for zen starter problems MOTOR NOT RUNNING MEANS NO OPERATING SOUND OF MAGNETIC CLUTCH clutch pedal not depressed fully battery run down battery voltage too low due to battery deterioration poor contact in battery terminal connection losse grounding fuse set loose or blown poor contacting action of ignition switch lead wire coupler loose in place open ckt between ignition switch an dmagnetic switch open ckt in pull-in coil-------------replace magnetic switch poor sliding of plunger MOTOR NOT RUNNINGmeans operating sound of magnetic switch heard battery down voltage low loos ecable conections burnt main contact connections or poor contacting action of magnetic switch---replace mag.sw. brsuhes are seating poorly or worn down----------repair/replace weakened brush spring--replace burnt commutator----[b]r poor grounding of fiels coil--repair layer shrt ckt of armature---r crankshaft rotation obstructed ----repair starting motor running but too slow(small torque) i f battery an d wiring are satisfactory ,inspect starting motor insufficient contact of magnetic switch main contacts---replace layer short circuit of armature---r disconnected,burnt or worn commutator--repair or R poor groundiing of field coil worn brushes weakened brush springs-------replace springs burnt or abnormally worn end bushings starting motor running ,but not cranking engine worn pinion tip------------replace overrunning clutch poor sliding of over running clutch overrunning clutch slipping worn teeth of ring gear----------replace flywheel NOISE abnormally worn bush worn pinion or worn teeth of ring gear-------------replace pinion or flywheelpoor sliding of pinion(failure in return movement) STARTING MOTOR DOES NOT STOP fused contact points of magnetic switch----replace sht ckt between turns of magnetic switch coil ---replace failure of returning action in ignition switch---replace
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 10:44	#18
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	Problem solved but how?? Ok, so it seems the problem is solved. But if someone can help me understand what it was, it would be great. I couldnt make much sense out of wot the mechanic was saying in his kannad hindi. There was nothing wrong with the battery. there was nothing wrong with the carburettor. there was nothing wrong with the fuel pump, fuel pump relay, fuel line. nothing wrong with the spark plugs and the wires. Yesterday i got the mechanics to come to my place where the car was parked. the mechanic checked all the above things. confirmed that they were all ok. Then he opened the top of the engine and asked his helper to push the car back slowly while its in reverse. he looked at the movement of the rocker arms closely.. confirmed that it was a timing problem and he will need to take a closer look at the timing belt to see if any teeth are missing, and also look at the bearings to check if there is any slippage. So they towed the car to the service station. There, he tinkered with the rocker arms.. did some adjustments and said that its fixed and handed over the car to me. He said the timing belt was ok and there was nothing wrong with the bearings as well. With tons of apprehension, i took the car from the garage back to work. But there was a noticeable improvement in the car's response. So today morning, when i turned the key in the ignition, it took barely 1 second to start up! Needless to say i was as happy as a kid in a candy bar. Can someone help me understand what was wrong here? Cheers Amitoj
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 16:15	#19
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	Looks like your timing belt tensioner was loose and he had readjusted the tensioner and the rockers... however you just lost the advance setting we did
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 16:16	#20
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	well, he was actually kind enough to reset it to its original (modified) position :-) although the fuel mix isnt as rich as it used to be. Last edited by amitoj : 9th August 2005 at 16:28.
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 16:32	#21
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	drop by sometime will do it again ...
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 16:38	#22
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	hehe... this time i might get greedy for more.
	() Thanks

9th August 2005, 22:31	#23
srasania BHPian Join Date: May 2005 Location: Orlando, FL, USA Posts: 321 Thanked: 8 Times View My Garage	guys..since this is a discussion on starting problems,just wanted to know - howcome there is no Choke on the New Honda City?..i bought NHC CVT 1 1/2 months back,and have a 1999 Esteem LX-which has a choke for cold starting. Also,wanted to know some technical stuff- why does it help if we pump the accelerator a couple of times before starting the engine?..do we have to keep the key position in the On position when we pump the accelerator,so,should it be in the Complete Off position while pumping the accelerator? thanks, sr
	() Thanks

10th August 2005, 10:11	#24
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	I guess only carb cars have chokes and NHC does not have a carb engine. Your esteem most probably does. I guess choke allows more air fuel mix to go into the engine and thus helps in starting it up in cold conditions. I have noticed that whenever i pull the choke, my accelerator pedal gets pressed down a bit as well. As for pumping the accelerator, i know its a good practice for my car... dont really know why. All the above is a layman's view/understanding. I will now wait for more expert opinions... Cheers Amitoj
	() Thanks

10th August 2005, 23:04	#26
Revvhead BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 450 Thanked: 20 Times View My Garage	Only carb engines have chokes In MPFI engines, the ECU automatically gives more fuel on the start (which is why you see high revs on start which slowly decreaseas the engine warms up) Pumping the pedal in a Carb car basicalyy pumps more fuel into the carb, therefore it starts better, carb cars dont usually dont start too well on idle. But be careful, dont pump too much else you'll flood the engine(carb) and will then have to sit & wait for the fuel to evaporate before you can start On MPFI cars, do not start by pumping the pedal, coz as i said, the ECu is programmed to start in a particular manner, using the pedal messes it up. So dont, as i recall most Maruti's have a sticker saying not to do that!
	() Thanks

13th August 2005, 01:44	#28
amitoj Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Windham, NH USA Posts: 3,348 Thanked: 3,105 Times View My Garage	ummm... contact psycho.. is all i can say pal!
	() Thanks