intelligent ECUs. how intelligent?

blacmagic · 26th November 2009, 19:15

I just saw a brand new Ford Ikon today that came to a friends shop for the customary stereo and remote locking change.
everything went well until - for some reason - the CEL came on and stayed on. nothing the fitters did or undid after that got rid of the light.
the RPM ended up limited to 2000. Im guessing it was the ECU's limp mode in action. the engine sounded and felt normal, so I reckon it was an electrical problem.
now here's my crib: why dont manufacturers give the user a provision to find the exact error code?
lately, the trend is for ECUs to handle almost everything in the car, not just fuelling. I personally find this excessive. why not have 3 modes where the driver decides to override limp mode always or manually [risking warranty, of course] or let the ECU handle everything?
my car does not like the concept of a TPS. it finds new and imaginative ways to break any TPS I attempt to attach to it. I have 5 broken TPSs in my collection so far. this means that the CEL is always on, but I love the fact that I can still have a ball without having to bother about a nanny ECU imposing limp mode on me. by the way, Ive also pulled two wires from that little socket on the passenger side and connected them to a switch so that I can get the error code without having to resort to gymnastics and short the wires every time. Im especially happy that it is nothing like some ECUs that instantly shut the car down and/or lock all doors at the slightest whiff of a problem.

this is really a matter of personal preference but Im really interested in finding out how you folk like your ECUs. rare, medium or well done.

ssjr0498 · 26th November 2009, 19:22

I am quietly and closely following this thread!!! I would pesonally want my ecu to give me the option of doing what I want when a error is thrown.

As of now, I am enjoying the launch controll and a 8500rpm redline

Cheers
Shrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacmagic

I just saw a brand new Ford Ikon today that came to a friends shop for the customary stereo and remote locking change.
everything went well until - for some reason - the CEL came on and stayed on. nothing the fitters did or undid after that got rid of the light.
the RPM ended up limited to 2000. Im guessing it was the ECU's limp mode in action. the engine sounded and felt normal, so I reckon it was an electrical problem.
now here's my crib: why dont manufacturers give the user a provision to find the exact error code?
lately, the trend is for ECUs to handle almost everything in the car, not just fuelling. I personally find this excessive. why not have 3 modes where the driver decides to override limp mode always or manually [risking warranty, of course] or let the ECU handle everything?
my car does not like the concept of a TPS. it finds new and imaginative ways to break any TPS I attempt to attach to it. I have 5 broken TPSs in my collection so far. this means that the CEL is always on, but I love the fact that I can still have a ball without having to bother about a nanny ECU imposing limp mode on me. by the way, Ive also pulled two wires from that little socket on the passenger side and connected them to a switch so that I can get the error code without having to resort to gymnastics and short the wires every time. Im especially happy that it is nothing like some ECUs that instantly shut the car down and/or lock all doors at the slightest whiff of a problem.

this is really a matter of personal preference but Im really interested in finding out how you folk like your ECUs. rare, medium or well done.

blacmagic · 26th November 2009, 19:25

Shrey, 8500 RPM?? so you finally have your hands on an RD 0901 I see. lucky man.

ssjr0498 · 26th November 2009, 19:29

Nah!! I have the 0601, currently I have removed it, it's only for some special saturday/sunday nights!! You know what I mean!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacmagic

Shrey, 8500 RPM?? so you finally have your hands on an RD 0901 I see. lucky man.

motophsyco · 26th November 2009, 20:40

Nice to know you are revving to 8500, but are you making any power past your redline? Or is it just for the sake of bragging? A real dyno chart should be accompanied with such claims to seek some credibility. Atleast, will prevent others from trying to copy the same and ending up with blown engines after reading such posts.

blacmagic · 26th November 2009, 23:28

folks, if you have the time, it would be much more informative and useful if you elaborated the reason behind your choice.

Shan2nu · 26th November 2009, 23:33

Quote:

Nice to know you are revving to 8500, but are you making any power past your redline?

LOL, no way. He just said that he revs to 8500. The engine must be maxing out below 7500rpm.

Shan2nu

ssjr0498 · 26th November 2009, 23:43

Hi,
No braggin no nothing!! No one makes peak power at the redline man!! I was just saying that im enjoying the 8500rpm redline. Like Shantanu said, no way am I producing anything after 7500.. so chillax bro!!

Cheers,
Shrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by motophsyco

Nice to know you are revving to 8500, but are you making any power past your redline? Or is it just for the sake of bragging? A real dyno chart should be accompanied with such claims to seek some credibility. Atleast, will prevent others from trying to copy the same and ending up with blown engines after reading such posts.

Shan2nu · 26th November 2009, 23:55

I chose option 3.

I would want the ECU to decide how the engine should perform in case of an error. I wouldn't like to take a chance by driving my car when the ECU thinks otherwise. I'd rather drive in limp mode than risk damaging the engine.

I dont think the ECU will limit engine performance to a large extent unless there is a good enough reason. When my 02 sensor failed, all i saw was a yellow light on the dash.

Engine performance didn't get affected much. The ECU used to alter the settings when the engine warmed up and the engine would run as usual.

Shan2nu

pranavt · 27th November 2009, 00:45

Get a better cam and you would make power after 7.5k, which I'm sure he knows. Shrey, what brand valvesprings? Aftermarket retainers?

As for the ECU, let it handle fuelling, ignition and reporting data on various sensors. I will choose what to do with the errors. However, limp mode is really nice since you get a stock fuel/ign map with open-loop, so you can always run your car to your nearest service center even with multiple sensors unplugged. My ITB'd car was driven about a km in limp mode with a couple of sensors disconnected, hardly any vacuum, no suitable fuel/ign maps and no IACV.

So I'd say:
Fuel + Ignition + Datalogging + Limp mode + various general-purpose inputs/outputs to configure/setup and run various aftermarket/custom things through the ECU itself.

My Honda ECU lets me remap and datalog. Features like launch control, tps/alpha-n based mapping, etc. Plus, usually 3-5 inputs/outputs to control various things like full-throttle-launch, switching to secondary fuel/ign maps (street/race mode kind of thing), direct wideband logging through ECU with analog (voltage-based)/ serial inputs, etc.

blacmagic · 27th November 2009, 00:53

Shan, good points. an ECU designed with common sense is good to have. that said, how many ECUs around are designed with common sense?

I remember reading about a Superb simply shutting down abruptly and refusing to start, a Bimmer crashing and burning its passengers alive because the ECU decided to lock all doors thats what I mean when I say "nanny ECU". I dont know why the Ikon I saw today went limp. shall update when I come to know and then discuss whether limp mode was warranted.

another thing I dont understand is why dont companies give the customer specific error codes instead of throwing up a light that could mean anything from a snapped speedo cable to loss in oil pressure? doesnt a customer deserve to know? rather, they make such a big deal of retrieving the error code that it looks like rocket science while the truth is that its extremely easy to retrieve the error code - in our OHCs at least.

Pranav, what ECU again? Honda?!

Canned Heat · 27th November 2009, 00:57

@ Shan2nu. its the preferred way by all manufacturers now due to OBD 2 specs. Its mainly due to the emission control systems. Any small problems are takbe care of by open loop or closed loop systems. Major faults cause the ecu 2 revert to limp home modes. OBD 1 used MIL flashing.

pranavt · 27th November 2009, 02:04

Yes, chipped Honda P28 running eCtune, previously CROME.

GTO · 27th November 2009, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssjr0498

As of now, I am enjoying the launch controll and a 8500rpm redline

Shrey, your post reminds me of an interesting ol' thread on increasing the OHCs revv limit. Take a look - 8300 rpm Honda City - Must read.

View Poll Results: how would you like your ECU to behave?
just take care of fuelling	0	0%
keep track of everything but let me decide how to handle an error	13	65.00%
do all the thinking for me	7	35.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

26th November 2009, 19:15	#1
blacmagic BANNED Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 221 Thanked: 12 Times	intelligent ECUs. how intelligent? I just saw a brand new Ford Ikon today that came to a friends shop for the customary stereo and remote locking change. everything went well until - for some reason - the CEL came on and stayed on. nothing the fitters did or undid after that got rid of the light. the RPM ended up limited to 2000. Im guessing it was the ECU's limp mode in action. the engine sounded and felt normal, so I reckon it was an electrical problem. now here's my crib: why dont manufacturers give the user a provision to find the exact error code? lately, the trend is for ECUs to handle almost everything in the car, not just fuelling. I personally find this excessive. why not have 3 modes where the driver decides to override limp mode always or manually [risking warranty, of course] or let the ECU handle everything? my car does not like the concept of a TPS. it finds new and imaginative ways to break any TPS I attempt to attach to it. I have 5 broken TPSs in my collection so far. this means that the CEL is always on, but I love the fact that I can still have a ball without having to bother about a nanny ECU imposing limp mode on me. by the way, Ive also pulled two wires from that little socket on the passenger side and connected them to a switch so that I can get the error code without having to resort to gymnastics and short the wires every time. Im especially happy that it is nothing like some ECUs that instantly shut the car down and/or lock all doors at the slightest whiff of a problem. this is really a matter of personal preference but Im really interested in finding out how you folk like your ECUs. rare, medium or well done. Last edited by blacmagic : 26th November 2009 at 19:17.
	() Thanks

26th November 2009, 19:25	#3
blacmagic BANNED Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 221 Thanked: 12 Times	Shrey, 8500 RPM?? so you finally have your hands on an RD 0901 I see. lucky man.
	() Thanks

26th November 2009, 20:40	#5
motophsyco BANNED Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: bangalore Posts: 23 Thanked: 0 Times	Nice to know you are revving to 8500, but are you making any power past your redline? Or is it just for the sake of bragging? A real dyno chart should be accompanied with such claims to seek some credibility. Atleast, will prevent others from trying to copy the same and ending up with blown engines after reading such posts.
	() Thanks

26th November 2009, 23:28	#6
blacmagic BANNED Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 221 Thanked: 12 Times	folks, if you have the time, it would be much more informative and useful if you elaborated the reason behind your choice.
	() Thanks

26th November 2009, 23:55	#9
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 125 Times View My Garage	I chose option 3. I would want the ECU to decide how the engine should perform in case of an error. I wouldn't like to take a chance by driving my car when the ECU thinks otherwise. I'd rather drive in limp mode than risk damaging the engine. I dont think the ECU will limit engine performance to a large extent unless there is a good enough reason. When my 02 sensor failed, all i saw was a yellow light on the dash. Engine performance didn't get affected much. The ECU used to alter the settings when the engine warmed up and the engine would run as usual. Shan2nu
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 00:45	#10
pranavt Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,682 Thanked: 641 Times View My Garage	Get a better cam and you would make power after 7.5k, which I'm sure he knows. Shrey, what brand valvesprings? Aftermarket retainers? As for the ECU, let it handle fuelling, ignition and reporting data on various sensors. I will choose what to do with the errors. However, limp mode is really nice since you get a stock fuel/ign map with open-loop, so you can always run your car to your nearest service center even with multiple sensors unplugged. My ITB'd car was driven about a km in limp mode with a couple of sensors disconnected, hardly any vacuum, no suitable fuel/ign maps and no IACV. So I'd say: Fuel + Ignition + Datalogging + Limp mode + various general-purpose inputs/outputs to configure/setup and run various aftermarket/custom things through the ECU itself. My Honda ECU lets me remap and datalog. Features like launch control, tps/alpha-n based mapping, etc. Plus, usually 3-5 inputs/outputs to control various things like full-throttle-launch, switching to secondary fuel/ign maps (street/race mode kind of thing), direct wideband logging through ECU with analog (voltage-based)/ serial inputs, etc.
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 00:53	#11
blacmagic BANNED Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 221 Thanked: 12 Times	Shan, good points. an ECU designed with common sense is good to have. that said, how many ECUs around are designed with common sense? I remember reading about a Superb simply shutting down abruptly and refusing to start, a Bimmer crashing and burning its passengers alive because the ECU decided to lock all doors thats what I mean when I say "nanny ECU". I dont know why the Ikon I saw today went limp. shall update when I come to know and then discuss whether limp mode was warranted. another thing I dont understand is why dont companies give the customer specific error codes instead of throwing up a light that could mean anything from a snapped speedo cable to loss in oil pressure? doesnt a customer deserve to know? rather, they make such a big deal of retrieving the error code that it looks like rocket science while the truth is that its extremely easy to retrieve the error code - in our OHCs at least. Pranav, what ECU again? Honda?! Last edited by blacmagic : 27th November 2009 at 00:54.
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 00:57	#12
Canned Heat Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bombay Posts: 8 Thanked: 16 Times	@ Shan2nu. its the preferred way by all manufacturers now due to OBD 2 specs. Its mainly due to the emission control systems. Any small problems are takbe care of by open loop or closed loop systems. Major faults cause the ecu 2 revert to limp home modes. OBD 1 used MIL flashing.
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 02:04	#13
pranavt Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,682 Thanked: 641 Times View My Garage	Yes, chipped Honda P28 running eCtune, previously CROME.
	() Thanks