Edit :Kulvinder Singh Ji few other peopel have done this mod , You can find links here on T-BHP itself but none of them reported any improvement leave alone 30%. So you need to asses how scintific the power / fuel efficiency tests are.
Anyway there are people who report 10 -20 BHP power increase or X% mileage improvements by various such mods as putting K&N filter , Triphase or bolting a vortex creating device and there is a dedicated thread on " Dude I bolted .. BHP" . So until the test is in controlled condition the claim is unverified at the best specially when others have reported results to the contrary.
Theoretically also disabling EGR should affect only top end power at sustained usage and that too marginally.
Anyway I have few comments / questions on the points you made
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh Well, isn’t this thread becoming fun, sure were all learning new things— |
Sure it is
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh So for my penny’s worth: (Though I refrain from going into long technical details- this is all available on the net, surprisingly- more written about the con’s than the pro’s) |
And not surprisingly most of these should be from US around 2006 - 2008 where mostly gasoline engines are used in SUV/Trucks am I right ?
And this is just before EPA norms were being tightened much later then Europe . Also most of these posts mention that EGR is effective in California and in colder climates not needed , India is hotter even in winters then California. Any way I do not buy this climate argument at all becuase once engine is heated the target it to keep combustion temperature below 2500 deg Fahrenheit so climatic difference of 40 - 60 deg Fahrenheit hardly matters in a hot engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
EGR’s have a greater effect on Petrol engines than on Diesels. (Look it up on the net)
1) For Diesels the problem is that, since EGR’s work effectively by slightly cooling Combustion Temperature and thus reducing NOx- they have the opposite effect on PM’s (Particulate Matter) these need the higher temperatures to effectively burn off. Which is why the specific new engine oils were developed- not to get rid off the PM’s i.e. clean them up- But to slow down the degradation of the Lubricating oil due to greater PM
contamination. |
Nothing is farther from truth then this
Lets look at 2 facts.
1. Any car manufacturer wants to keep manufacturing costs low and components minimum.
2. Petrol / Gasoline engines are able to meet BS3 /Euro 3 guidelines without EGR for ages now. My personal example is Opel Corsa we owned it was Euro 3 when in India Euro 1 was enforced. There was no EGR in that engine.
Mostly in Diesel cars EGR is introduced to lower the combustion temperature to reduce NOX.
Also Diesel engine oils for Euro 3 / Euro 4 vehicles have more detergent content that is to cleanup the engine.
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
SO how much more NOx has been produced from the production of the newer oils—and how much more is being produced from making the damn things (EGR’s) themselves?? |
While I do not have any figure myself and I think neither you do have it is falacious to assume that more Nox is created by increasing the quantity of detergent additives in oil.
Manufacturing anything no doubt creates some pollution it mining the ore , refining , casting , forging , machining etc but for making EGR this pollution is no more then what is used for making a home plumbing gate for water pipe. EGR is precision machined and microprocessor controlled so manufacturing cost is more.
Also controlling pollution during mass manufacturing is a general phenomenon and not restricted to EGR , if not EGR then also cylinders , pistons , tyres and seats will create some emissions and general practices in plants is required to control them.
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
2) Engine manufacturers are required to meet certain targets by legislation—this only applies to the BRAND NEW ENGINE—Under STANDARD and specific testing conditions. I am sure we can all surmise that an Engine starts to wear the moment it is firs’t started!!- and also that engines will function in varying ways depending on a variety of factors- Climate, Air condition in a locality, drivng styles/habits, maintainance habits etc..
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True , but engine manufacturers test engines for lakhs of KM in cumulative testing to ensure and decide on serviceability of the engine.Also this testing is done in road tests on target market.
There is a predefined service interval where oil change and filter change is specified , In may last 2.5 years of driving a vehicle ( purchased new at that time) I have not noticed any increase in Nox emissions.
I have changed Oil between 10 -15 K Kms and filter at 20K interval as specified by manufacturer.
I compared this to others on the T-BHP 2.2 VTT Safari thread and the change is negligible even for vehicles more then 50K on Odo.
I don't think that other vehicles will be much off the mark in this regard.
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
So that it cannot in the real world consistently be within the exact target as prescribed by the legislation.
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Yes it can be the constant in real world with in prescribed range if proper maintenance is done
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
This thread started because the originator noticed the amount of soot and sludge built up when cleaning the EGR- and wondered how much of this is going into the Intake manifold and then the chamber. His suspicion tells him that this is not GOOD!! Had he opened up the Intake manifold- he might have fainted from Shock! |
A slight correction Originator did not actually noticed anything he "felt" about it.
If you open intake manifold of any vehicle even with out EGR it is bound to be dirty , As long as this dirt grime is with in prescribed limit it is fine.
It need not be clinically clean.
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
Now the simple point is: When the Manufacturer takes his brand new engine to be tested and certified for the Emissions Target- does anyone (in their right mind) assume that the manufacturer puts that much soot and sludge into the inlet manifold- and rest of the engine. Especially since Legislation does not require him to???------- Personally, I think not!! |
No only brand new engines are not tested. As a customer with 4 year warrenty every customer tests them as per law every 6 months ( atleast in Bangalore , Traffic police checks the emission certificate, I have heard in Chennai it is different ) and if he notice emissions going beyond the prescribed range he will raise a warrenty issue with the manufacturer.
As I stated I have not noticed emissions going up in last 2.5 years of ownership of vehicle with EGR nor have others whome I asked / know.
So I kind of belive that the BS3 vehicle remains BS3 if serviced at prescribed intervals.
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Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
Here is another little question: Does a dirty air filter- have an effect on the efficiency – and thus Emissions?
Well I’ve seen an air filter that had not been changed/cleaned in 120k kms. And I have seen a Intake manifold with EGR at 15K—the Intake Manifold was a hell of a lot dirtier! (In fact is there any point in having an air filter!!) |
Sure it does and that is why service stations and service intervals exist.
A car is a serviceable commodity and not a sealed none serviceable commodity like a microprocessor.
How can you compare something which is not maintained as per maintenance guideline with normal case ?
If filter is not changed emission checks are bound to fail ( mandatory in 6 months) and Car needs to be serviced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh SO REAL MORAL ISSUE:
What is worse--- Reducing NOx /emissions at the point of NEW ENGINE CERTIFICATION- so that the manufacturer can have a Pat on his back- OR -Avoiding the increase in emissions as a result of the EGR contaminating the Intake when the Engine is the consumers (and not the manufacturers anymore) responsibility!!!! |
Real moral issue is to buy something which meets emission targets at the point of purchase and service it at regular intervals so it continue to meet the guidelines through it's serviceable life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh
As to benefits:
Well everyone who has done it swears there is an increase in efficiency (just check the net) i.e better FE. But theoretically higher combustion temperatures actually mean better efficiency!!!!!
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Not quite , Higher combustion temperature with in specified tolerance limit.
Engine is not a blast furnace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh —Personally: When new (and properly run in- another different issue) My DDiS gave me around 18. By around 10k it was around 16 and stayed there. After disabling the EGR and also cleaning the Intake Manifold my FE is back to around 18 and stays there! |
How scientific and controlled was this test , I get variety of milages depending on traffic conditions ( no two days are same even on same route), climate and pumps from where I fill.
Until you have absolute control over these conditions you can never be sure on the results.
After 2.5 years of ownership , My fuel efficiency on highways stand where it was in 2nd month that is 14 Kmpl if I drive around 90 kmph , 12.6 if I drive between 120 -140 kmph.
And in city it is around 10 kmpl and 9.8 if it is heavy bumper to bumper stretch.