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Originally Posted by DKG Just out of curiosity how have you deduced that all the components don't add up to 7.5 lacs? considering you now acknowledge you don't know the figures? |
Because if it did, there's no way Mahindra sold you one for that price.
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Originally Posted by DKG
Wow !! so a BMW 5 series and 7 are not cobbled together when the same engine does duty in both with a engine remap and customers pay a hefty premium on the 7?
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What does platform sharing between Audi, VW and Porsche mean to you if their respective SUV's are not cobbled together?
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When VW makes a Seat and a Skoda and a VW with shared components that's not a cobbled together car for you?
SO !! when a Mahindra does it this becomes a cobbled together 4x4? |
Personally, I think it's automotive blasphemy to talk about such cars in a Thar thread, but what the heck.
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Originally Posted by DKG I'm afraid you don't seem to be aware that manufacturers across the planet are busy "cobbling together" models to lighten your pocket. This is the way ahead for the industry and in a few decades all you will have is maybe five automotive "cobblers" dishing out thirty brands !!
BTW your biggest cobble story is the Fortuner/Innova/Hilux trio. Do you now also believe that the Fortuner is a rip off at 24 lacs? when the Innova which shares so much with it is at 15? |
FYI, platform sharing and parts bin engineering has been going on much longer than the examples you quoted, and is not something new. I would hardly call the IMV platform the biggest story. But let's use it as an example, because BMW and VW just does not deserve to be denigrated to being compared by M&M.
Platform sharing and parts bin engineering is a well accepted and successful program done by several manufacturers. But the end result of each of these programs is a vehicle that is capable on it's own. They do not use that as an excuse to cover weakness. Even though the Innova and Hilux shares same platform, the Hilux has been individually tailored for it's use. Take for example, the rear tow hook. Innova does not need/have a rear tow hook. But the Hilux has one. The rear end that Thar borrowed does not have a tow hook. Was it engineered to have one in the Thar? Does a real Jeep not have a tow hook? Difference between engineering and cobbling.
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Originally Posted by DKG I personally don't think the Fortuner is a rip off and if I could afford it I would buy one anyday and consider it a VFM SUV !! because in my opinion it really is so considering its cousins are beyond 50 lacs topping it to 100 lacs. |
It's a well known fact that the Fortuner has been criticized for having similar interiors to the Innova and therefore not considered VFM by many. Toyota is responding to this and trying to distinguish Fortuner from Innova.
The steering offset from eons ago, or as M&M would like to say now, from the Bolero continues with the Thar. Criticism of such is not entertained. Difference between engineering and cobbling.
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Originally Posted by DKG
No you missed the whole point. You design a car fresh from the drawing board today like the Thar and give consumers a brand new 2.5 litre CRDi engine based 4x4 you won't be able to do it less than 15 lakhs (maybe 20?) unless ofcourse you "cobble together" a car like what Mahindra did using parts from the Scorpio and Bolero family of cars. |
Not that it will happen, but who is asking for a fresh design? Since none of that has happened, what warrants the asking price of Rs.7 lakhs? Please dont give the sum of all parts argument again because it just doesnt hold any water in my eyes. If there was any truth in that theory the manufacturing industry would not exist.
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Originally Posted by DKG True and what makes you think that Mahindra or Tata's aren't? You seriously believe that these Indian companies can withstand competition if they were as hollow as you claim them to be in competence? Greed doesn't ensure market share and growth. Competence and delivering to customer demand does. |
I am a very patriotic guy myself, but my pride remains with the Indian buyer, who deserves better products, and not the manufacturers, who have been very disappointing to say the least.
I am sorry to say, but yes, I do think that Mahindra is a very hollow and greedy company. Market share and growth in India by Mahindra is purely by sheer Middle class volume and favourable government policies. If you try to convince me that it is because of innovation or engineering or any quality related to automotive greatness, you would be wasting your time.
Take for example the Great Scorpio. Retails for roughly same price as an Innova. (Yes, yes, slightly lower, I know). A big portion of Innova's cost is going for import taxes. How much of Scorpio's? Yeah, that much.
How many iterations and versions did it take to make a decent (safe) handling vehicle? Is it still a decent (safe) handling vehicle? I still recall the older generation Scorpios being used in B grade regional movies with the goondas chasing, and a mere flick of the steering wheel would make the vehicle literally jump from side to side. Funny? yeah. Well engineered? No.
I'm sure there was a poor handling Innova at one time too, but that must have been in pre production, because Toyota would not be caught dead putting their name on something like that and selling it to people.
M&M is lucky the Govt does not enforce the Lemon law or hold them responsible in any manner for putting unsafe vehicles on the road, and using the customers as guinea pigs to fund their development cost.
What's that you say? Toyota has so much more money for development? Well, if Mahindra spent money on vehicle development, instead of using moneys got from selling crap to buy software companies, I might have had an iota of respect. But yeah, it's corporate policy, blah, blah. Comes back to my earlier post of engineering greatness vs Richest list.
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Originally Posted by DKG Today the demand for 4x4 leisure vehicles is miniscule and yet for the little demand there is the Thar fills in very well. The car will carve its own reputation and identity of its own. |
With vehicles like the Thar the only option, yes, it will remain miniscule. Usually with lifestyle vehicles, an availability of options is what increases demand. And from the looks of it, an oath of loyalty in blood to Mahindra is pre requisite to join. So, hopefully will remain small.
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Originally Posted by DKG My suggestion: Take a freshly restored 540/550 from Mayapuri, test drive it to your heart's content, then go to a showroom and test drive a Thar. Then come back and announce if you still believe a Thar is a factory made Mayapuri Jeep. |
Do I really need to compare with Mayapuri? You guys seem to be doing it plenty. I see it as a vehicle alone, and as such, it sucks.
Cheers