[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo

Just goes on to show that even after the 3 have overlapped eachother's domains where Merc's have improved handling & BMW's have gotten more comfortable in the post-Bangle era, they still remain true to their original selling points - BMW for performance, Mercedes for comfort and Audi as the perfect blend of the 2.
Ofcourse you do have the last gen Merc and BMW while the Audi is new and the new A6 being what it is (extremely capable, drove it recently) it still slots itself perfectly between the other 2. Far more comfortable than the BMW but not as sporty to drive yet far more sporty than the w211 but not quite as comfortable.

Exactly!
However, it is a pity that the new W212 isn't as comfortable or well built as the W211, the F10 isn't as pure driver focussed as the E60. Audi is the only one who's taken it forward - maybe due to the fact that I HATED the old A6 with its dull looks, dull interiors, and what not.

[Harbir]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

The A6's looks, interiors, features are why it would be my pick over the 5, but for my dad, the rear seat experience of the 5 is slightly better (not ride quality, but seats). So its each for their own.

It of course depends on how tall you are, but speaking only for myself, I find that the back seats of all of the cars in the class are quite poor. All three cars have very cramped rear quarters compared to, say, an Accord. THe mercedes is so poor that I flat out refuse to ride in the back. The A6 and 5er I can manage if there is a short occupant in the front seat, but I am not happy.

For me, a chauffeur driven car MUST have a back seat that is as spacious as the front seat. So if I was going to be driven by a chauffeur, I wouldn't buy any of these cars. I'd buy an accord or a superb. Or used S class.

As to the performance credentials of the 5, as I have said elsewhere, compared to the E39 (the high point of the 5 as a sport sedan), and even the E60, the F10 is no sport sedan. Its a miserable let down in fact. As such, all it offers is a slightly more involving drive than the E and the A6, but now not nearly enough to recommend the car. the F10 drives like a truck compared to the E39 530i SP that a colleague of mine used to own. That the F10 is somewhat more entertaining to toss around than an A6 or an E does not make it the drivers choice by default. the fact is, now there are no cars in this class that are the drivers' choice. Now you buy these cars for the most optimal blend of luxury, performance, refinement and driving pleasure and not because you expect a really good driver's car.

just my 2 cents.

the A6 3.0 I recommended my dad to buy was based on the fact that he was going to drive it himself and that it was the best blend of the traits that, in my view, define this segment.

If I was buying a car for myself, I wouldn't buy any of these cars. I'd buy a 330i. except automatic 3 series are complete crap as drivers cars and BMW won't sell this superb car here with 3 pedals.

About the only drivers car that really calls to me in the Indian market is the boxster because its the cheapest drivers car in India with 3 pedals.

but then I run into another problem. Intensely crowded traffic on decent roads and lack of decent roads in less trafficked areas, and the profusion of pedestrians, bicycles, dogs, bullock carts and children on indian roads have me asking where the heck I would drive a boxster to really enjoy it. I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer yet.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by Harbir

It of course depends on how tall you are, but speaking only for myself, I find that the back seats of all of the cars in the class are quite poor. All three cars have very cramped rear quarters compared to, say, an Accord. THe mercedes is so poor that I flat out refuse to ride in the back. The A6 and 5er I can manage if there is a short occupant in the front seat, but I am not happy.

For me, a chauffeur driven car MUST have a back seat that is as spacious as the front seat. So if I was going to be driven by a chauffeur, I wouldn't buy any of these cars. I'd buy an accord or a superb. Or used S class.

As to the performance credentials of the 5, as I have said elsewhere, compared to the E39 (the high point of the 5 as a sport sedan), and even the E60, the F10 is no sport sedan. Its a miserable let down in fact. As such, all it offers is a slightly more involving drive than the E and the A6, but now not nearly enough to recommend the car. the F10 drives like a truck compared to the E39 530i SP that a colleague of mine used to own. That the F10 is somewhat more entertaining to toss around than an A6 or an E does not make it the drivers choice by default. the fact is, now there are no cars in this class that are the drivers' choice. Now you buy these cars for the most optimal blend of luxury, performance, refinement and driving pleasure and not because you expect a really good driver's car.

just my 2 cents.

the A6 3.0 I recommended my dad to buy was based on the fact that he was going to drive it himself and that it was the best blend of the traits that, in my view, define this segment.

If I was buying a car for myself, I wouldn't buy any of these cars. I'd buy a 330i. except automatic 3 series are complete crap as drivers cars and BMW won't sell this superb car here with 3 pedals.

About the only drivers car that really calls to me in the Indian market is the boxster because its the cheapest drivers car in India with 3 pedals.

but then I run into another problem. Intensely crowded traffic on decent roads and lack of decent roads in less trafficked areas, and the profusion of pedestrians, bicycles, dogs, bullock carts and children on indian roads have me asking where the heck I would drive a boxster to really enjoy it. I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer yet.

Never mentioned legroom! It's good enough for one person to sit in the rear, with the passenger seat all the way ahead, and for the time being, that is a good enough.
I agree the Superb and S class etc. would be much better on this count, but you always want to upgrade to a better one, plus the Mercedes/Audi/Mercedes trio are more aspirational cars and brands than the Skoda/Honda/VW, right?
And used S Class - unless it is nearly new, i prefer avoiding a used German. Also, parking in some buildings and parking lots is a little tough, so these are best used by someone who has enough parking space, as well as someone who doesn't mind the attention - as much as Mumbai has developed, in many places an S Class/7 Series would draw a lot of attention, especially by the beggers, and passer bys. A big nuisance IMO, and this is something I have actually noticed.
We got the 2.0 TDi as this was going to be a chauffeur drive. Ideally, I would have liked the 3.0 TDi, but given that i've only driven it for 150/3000kms, it made absolutely no sense.
Either ways, I agree with you about the 330i. If I were buying a new car, the 3 series is about as big as a car I would like. Maybe even up to the Passat sized, but only if it is nimble to handle. Ideally, the 320d Highline would have been my pick, with a remap thrown in

[PlatzdaTurbo]

A few questions , Sanjay -
1) Those all LED headlights, how much do they set you back by ? Were you contemplating them or never even considered ?
If you got the chance to try out the showroom vehicle equipped with LED headlights, any perceptible difference from the Xenons ? Xenons in themselves are supposed to be very powerful.

2) Does your car have the Bose system or is it only offered on the 3 litre models ?

3) I know that for a spirited drive you would still take the E60 but in a scenario assume you need to make way through the irritating drivers on marine drive which in itself does not have a great road surface anymore (so the ride quality and suspension is put to test) ,wade through bumper to bumper traffic on peddar road and finally get to gun the car on worli sea face and then the sea link.
Ideally you have every situation in front of you in this case- bad roads, making way through drivers with zilch lane discipline, bumper to bumper traffic and then empty roads. In such a situation ,if you had all 3 at your disposal - w211, C7, e60.
What would be your pick ?

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo

A few questions , Sanjay -
1) Those all LED headlights, how much do they set you back by ? Were you contemplating them or never even considered ?
If you got the chance to try out the showroom vehicle equipped with LED headlights, any perceptible difference from the Xenons ? Xenons in themselves are supposed to be very powerful.

2) Does your car have the Bose system or is it only offered on the 3 litre models ?

3) I know that for a spirited drive you would still take the E60 but in a scenario assume you need to make way through the irritating drivers on marine drive which in itself does not have a great road surface anymore (so the ride quality and suspension is put to test) ,wade through bumper to bumper traffic on peddar road and finally get to gun the car on worli sea face and then the sea link.
Ideally you have every situation in front of you in this case- bad roads, making way through drivers with zilch lane discipline, bumper to bumper traffic and then empty roads. In such a situation ,if you had all 3 at your disposal - w211, C7, e60.
What would be your pick?

LED Headlights:
Contemplated them, but did not get a chance to see them in action. Hopefully, will get to see them in action at some point and will report back on those.
They were 2.77L IIRC, and to be honest, given that the current ones are quite good, it didn't make sense to spend the extra for them. Also, the first 2.0 TDi that Audi Mumbai West was scheduled to get didn't have any accessory package, and customizing one would have taken 4 months - not worth the wait or the price IMO, though I could be proven wrong.

IIRC the Bose system is an accessory. It is not part of the standard equipment on the 3.0 as well. Its available for all the variants @ around 1.5L

The E60. I don't care about the comfort, for me its more about the drive, and the E60 does a good job with the great gearbox, decent ride on tubeless, and a beast of an engine for the sealink!
This would be followed by the Audi, once again simply because of the gearbox and eager engine.
The Merc would be last, as the gearbox absolutely kills the engine and would drive me nuts on the sea link as well as Pedder Road. However, it handles Marine Drive the best!
To be honest, if the W211 had a better engine/gearbox combo, it would be my pick, as the look on peoples faces when a completely non sporty E Class rips by them has a charm of its own!
The thing is at the moment, the E60 is young, sporty, and fun - something that a young person would like to drive!
The Audi is something for the middle aged but young at heart person!
And the Mercedes W211 for the back seat middle-elderly aged soul.

[PlatzdaTurbo]

Funny how in 2 out of 3 cases the previous gen cars still take the crown.
I have no clue about Mercs but according to you the w211 was not only more comfortable but also better-built.

I for one ,would always take the e60 over the f10. It just looks out of the world even today & the fact that the f10 just cant match up to the e60 in terms of driving dynamics just seals it. Weird though with such strides in technology ,even in today's day & age driving dynamics just cannot be enhanced without compromising on comfort and vice-versa.

In that sense i appreciate Audi's efforts to find the right balance instead of terming them as neither here nor there. I still dont quite get their bullishness with regards to sticking to FWD in non-quattro models. 50:50 weight distribution would only help.

Lastly i totally understand where you are coming from when you say Audi has taken the game ahead as but for the pre-facelift previous gen A6, which was tremendously boring but a safe design, they completely messed it up with the facelifts that followed by sticking on those DRLs and what not. Was unnecessary and they ruined the car steadily all the way to its end. Conversely then, the new A6 really does everything well and comes as a breath of fresh air. But for the bland rear i love the looks too.

[Harbir]

I actually regret that my dad's 3.0T doesn't have the LEDs, even though I was absolutely determined that he should not pay for them. In urban areas with decent lighting, its not an issue, but out in rural areas or on the highway at night with no street lights, the A6's lights are amongst the worst and most dangerous lights I have ever encountered. The low beams are aimed too low and there is no way for the owner to adjust them (as I was able to on my 330i), and the high beams are bright but too diffuse and unfocused to be concentrate light on objects on the roadway well enough to allow you to discern them and their movement clearly.

Its such a let down that I have been wondering if the LED headlamps can be retrofitted

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I actually regret that my dad's 3.0T doesn't have the LEDs, even though I was absolutely determined that he should not pay for them. In urban areas with decent lighting, its not an issue, but out in rural areas or on the highway at night with no street lights, the A6's lights are amongst the worst and most dangerous lights I have ever encountered. The low beams are aimed too low and there is no way for the owner to adjust them (as I was able to on my 330i), and the high beams are bright but too diffuse and unfocused to be concentrate light on objects on the roadway well enough to allow you to discern them and their movement clearly.

Its such a let down that I have been wondering if the LED headlamps can be retrofitted

Doesn't A6 come standard with bixenons and stuff on par with F10, W212 etc.? Leaving aside the fact that LED options might be better, do you think A6 standard bixenons are worse than competition?

[Harbir]

the bixenon's on my dad's A6 are worse than the halogens on my wife's i10.

[PlatzdaTurbo]

Originally Posted by androdev

Doesn't A6 come standard with bixenons and stuff on par with F10, W212 etc.? Leaving aside the fact that LED options might be better, do you think A6 standard bixenons are worse than competition?

The answer to your first question is YES the mechanism etc is more or less the same.
Because of the precise above reason i dont know how could they be better or worse than rivals.
I dont know the case with Harbir's A6 but the ones on my car are more than enough on non-lit expressways at night.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo

Funny how in 2 out of 3 cases the previous gen cars still take the crown.
I have no clue about Mercs but according to you the w211 was not only more comfortable but also better-built.

Lastly i totally understand where you are coming from when you say Audi has taken the game ahead as but for the pre-facelift previous gen A6, which was tremendously boring but a safe design, they completely messed it up with the facelifts that followed by sticking on those DRLs and what not. Was unnecessary and they ruined the car steadily all the way to its end. Conversely then, the new A6 really does everything well and comes as a breath of fresh air. But for the bland rear i love the looks too.

Well, the W212 doesn't have as nice interiors in terms of design, and some of the more relevant material used such as the leather. Also the car doesn't come across as 'solid' (for lack of a better word) as the W211.
That aside, the gearbox is a shame, though the engine specs sound great!

About the previous gen A6. I agree, the face-lifted versions DRL's were ugly, but they did a great job with the rear compared to this version. But my point is that this version is actually a significant improvement over the previous version, in terms of exteriors, interiors, engines, everything!
If this was the 3.0 TDi, there might be a very good possibility of me being hard pressed for choice between the E60 and this for the drive you outlined.

Originally Posted by Harbir

I actually regret that my dad's 3.0T doesn't have the LEDs, even though I was absolutely determined that he should not pay for them. In urban areas with decent lighting, its not an issue, but out in rural areas or on the highway at night with no street lights, the A6's lights are amongst the worst and most dangerous lights I have ever encountered. The low beams are aimed too low and there is no way for the owner to adjust them (as I was able to on my 330i), and the high beams are bright but too diffuse and unfocused to be concentrate light on objects on the roadway well enough to allow you to discern them and their movement clearly.

Its such a let down that I have been wondering if the LED headlamps can be retrofitted

I don't see why not.
Never got an opportunity to drive this car on an unlit highway, and based on the feedback in the city, I am quite happy with the performance of ours. The BMW does have better lamps though!

I really miss the Concave/Convex mirror combination that the E60/W211 have on the ORVM. I wish these were a touch larger.

[PlatzdaTurbo]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

I don't see why not.
Never got an opportunity to drive this car on an unlit highway, and based on the feedback in the city, I am quite happy with the performance of ours. The BMW does have better lamps though!
.

Does it ?
Generally the mechanism used in all models with bi-xenons is supposed to be the same. I am assuming all these manufacturers even use bulbs of similar make.
Wonder how 1 is better than the other ?

[Zkalra]

Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo

Does it ?
Generally the mechanism used in all models with bi-xenons is supposed to be the same. I am assuming all these manufacturers even use bulbs of similar make.
Wonder how 1 is better than the other ?

I have no way to quantify this but I personally feel that bimmer's xenons somehow illuminate the road a bit better. Again maybe a placebo effect, but with the bimmer I have never had to go not high beams.

[PlatzdaTurbo]

Originally Posted by Zkalra

I have no way to quantify this but I personally feel that bimmer's xenons somehow illuminate the road a bit better. Again maybe a placebo effect, but with the bimmer I have never had to go not high beams.

Dam, food for thought. Just how...got me curious.
Have to experience this. Personally my car's HIDs never felt lacking in any scenario but need to sit in a Beemer to actually see if there is any perceptible difference.

[Zkalra]

Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo

Dam, food for thought. Just how...got me curious.
Have to experience this. Personally my car's HIDs never felt lacking in any scenario but need to sit in a Beemer to actually see if there is any perceptible difference.

The diffence is minor at best to be honest. But nonetheless worth checking out.