Team-BHP - Joy with my Toy : Maruti Ertiga VXi Initial Ownership Report

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Originally Posted by AGP (Post 3046124)

Though the max size available is 14 kg for CNG cyliner but Ertiga has very little boot space and fitting even 12 kg cylinder could be a very tight job. Hence I had inquired at various places and came to know that within 12 kg cylinder they have 2 options; 1 with small length and big diameter and other one is longer length and small diameter. In my view, the second one will fit properly. However, this can be confirmed only by actually installing CNG kit.

Thanks for the clarification. I sincerely hope someone comes up with a cylinder design that has maximum capacity & occupies optimum space in the Ertiga boot. By the way what would be the approximate cost of fitting the CNG kit in the Ertiga. Also what other changes would be required to be done e.g. sparks plugs, HT cable, injectors etc? I want to know the total cost of CNG installation so that a fair comparison can be made with the diesel variant & a sound decision can be made.

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I am planning to do that within 3-4 months (due to budget :Frustrati) and will keep updating you about this. Thanks,

Looking forward for that day.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3046859)

There are three types of CNG kit available in market;
1) Open Loop - Approx. 28k (including RTO passing) - Not recommended for New car

2) Closed Loop - Approx. 32k (including RTO Passing). This is same as open loop but with Lamda controller which takes the signal from the O2 sensor and provides feedback for gas injection. Hence there is little control over gas inject. The FE will increase by 1 or 2 kmpl with this lamda sensor.

- This again not recommended for New Car

3) Sequential Loop - Approx. 50-55k (including RTO passing) - Recommended for New Car. Unlike Open/Closed loop kit, It has its own ECU and all settings are computerized. However, it requires tuning after every 6 months from the fitter (Just 5-10 min job). Here the switching between CNG to Petrol in the event of CNG getting exhausted is automatic. While in Close/Open loop kit, once CNG is exhausted, the car starts jerking like bike comes to reserve and you need to press the switch to convert to petrol. Once you press the switch, car starts to run on petrol without stopping like we do to bike while driving.

Apart from the kit, following changes are recommended in the Car
1) New NGK Spark Plug
2) Throttle body cleaning.

However, for new car you don't have to clean the throttle body, you just need to change the Spark Plugs (Max 1k cost for 4). This too is not mandatory to change but they just recommend.

Your total cost will be max. 55k. I did the following calculations for checking feasibility compared to Petrol/Diesel.

Petrol CNG Diesel
FE (65% City + 35% Highway) 12 (Pessimistic) 18 (Most Likely) 18 (Optimistic)
Fuel Cost (Mumbai) 75 34 54
Per Km Cost 6.25 1.89 3.00

Petrol vs CNG
There is a saving of Rs. 4.36 per km against the CAPEX of 55K. Hence you need to run 12,615 km to get break-even. Again, once you convert to CNG, you will tend to drive more so you will easily cross beak-even before 1 year. Then enjoy the savings of Rs. 4 per km you drive. Suppose you will keep your car till 70,000 km reading before selling it. You would have saved more than 2.5 Lakhs by then (with assumption of present fuel price) clap:

Petrol vs Diesel
There is a saving of Rs. 3.25 per km against the initial cost difference of approx. 1.5 Lakh. The break-even km would be 46,000 km. You will then start enjoying savings. You could save approx. Rs. 78,000 till you reach 70,000 km. But this does not include the higher maintenance cost difference and resale price difference.

Diesel vs CNG
No comparison, simply because initial investment in Diesel is Rs. 1 Lakh more compared to CNG fitted Petrol. Also CNG per km cost saving is approx. 1 Rs. compared to diesel.

Hence in my point of view CNG fuel is the clear winner w.r.t Ownership cost provided you are ok with frequently being in CNG station queue.

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Originally Posted by parassoni (Post 3046770)

Total cost that didnt get covered by insurance plus wiring and labour came to around 7.5k! this included the wires, motor for wiper, tubes for the sprayer, and a new rear spoiler light as the water sprayer is attached to the light on the Zdi.

Good information. I will try to take insurance advantage later for this replacement. :D

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Originally Posted by parassoni (Post 3046770)

Worthwhile, though i would suggest most critical accesorty for an Ertiga is Rear parking sensor/camera! MGA comes around 10-12k while a good after market one costs 5k labour inclusive at Thapar motors-Sion koliwada!

You are right. I have opted for only parking sensor from MGA (Rs. 2890) and not opted for the VGA Camera one (Rs. 9990) because of very poor quality of Camera and non-availability of mirror fitted display. Still the parking sensor is working perfectly and it is indeed a must accessory.

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Originally Posted by AGP (Post 3046973)

Petrol vs CNG
There is a saving of Rs. 4.36 per km against the CAPEX of 55K.

Petrol vs Diesel
There is a saving of Rs. 3.25 per km against the initial cost difference of approx. 1.5 Lakh.

Diesel vs CNG
No comparison, simply because initial investment in Diesel is Rs. 1 Lakh more compared to CNG fitted Petrol. Also CNG per km cost saving is approx. 1 Rs. compared to diesel.

Hence in my point of view CNG fuel is the clear winner w.r.t Ownership cost provided you are ok with frequently being in CNG station queue.

Very good comparo Anil, this was an eye opener for me. So the CNG wins hands down over diesel, be it the initial one time cost or the running cost & moreover it is the cleanest fuel of all the three. Now the only hitch being the long waiting times at the CNG filling stations. I hope this becomes a thing of the past & more CNG stations come up everywhere.

Now I have a couple of queries. Hope you don't mind if I post them here:

Is the CNG kit good only for 70K kms or it can withstand the life of the car? I am asking this because, I am likely to clock 70K kms in 3 years or lesser & I am looking forward to keep the car for at least 8 years, this means, I am looking at a total running of about 150K to 200K kms approximately.
Are CNG vehicles/kits prone to more maintenance/ higher costs given such long running?
Does it make a noticeable difference in driving characteristic when shifting from petrol to CNG & vice versa?
To maintain all the systems in good condition, what is the CNG to Petrol ratio that a car should be run on, say in a week?
Are insurance charges higher for a CNG run vehicle compared to a petrol one?

Could you please guide to threads here on TBHP or any other resource, which can give a clear picture of the pros & cons or running on CNG?

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Is the CNG kit good only for 70K kms or it can withstand the life of the car? I am asking this because, I am likely to clock 70K kms in 3 years or lesser & I am looking forward to keep the car for at least 8 years, this means, I am looking at a total running of about 150K to 200K kms approximately.

I just mentioned one reference figure of 70k. CNG kit generally run fine till 5 years (That is what I have heard). After this, or even before some parts might need to be replaced and not the entire kit. However, I suggest to change the kit after 5 years to newer one. Cylinder is to be hydro tested after 5 years (as per the Rule of RTO). You can certainly keep the same cylinder till 8 years. Only the ECU or Vapouriser need to be replaced in case they create problems.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Are CNG vehicles/kits prone to more maintenance/ higher costs given such long running?

No. They are not prone to more maintenance. However, engine head cleaning might be on cards after 3 years running on CNG. This is my estimate but your fitter will guide you better.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Does it make a noticeable difference in driving characteristic when shifting from petrol to CNG & vice versa?

Yes and No. It does reduce slight power with open/closed loop kits but with sequential kit the difference would not be even 5%.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

To maintain all the systems in good condition, what is the CNG to Petrol ratio that a car should be run on, say in a week?

You have to start the engine in Petrol and drive for 2-3 km then you can switch to CNG. At the end of the day, you should run on petrol for again 2-3 km and then switch off the engine. This is not hard and fast rule. But generally people advice the same. However, I never implemented that on Zen. stupid:

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Are insurance charges higher for a CNG run vehicle compared to a petrol one?

Yes. You have to endorse the CNG kit in the Insurance. But the charges are simply proportionate to the cost of CNG kit. i.e it will be max 2-2.5k increase in my estimate.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Could you please guide to threads here on TBHP or any other resource, which can give a clear picture of the pros & cons or running on CNG?

I will try to find out the same.

Thanks,

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Originally Posted by Rajain (Post 3046755)

Hi AGP

I have heard of the argument against a front bumper that it is basically installed on the chassis and therefore any front collision will impact the chassis more than anything else.

Thanks Rajain for your wishes. Yes, what you heard is true. However, I installed front guard to protect from day to day kisses to other vehicles/bikers, :D around tiny parking spaces, etc so that front bumper does not get scratches and all.

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Originally Posted by Rajain (Post 3046755)

Hi Swiftdiesel - I actually think the fuel tank is something like 48 ltrs. Certainly no more than 50. The reason is around when around 35 ltrs are consumed the marker for 'low fuel warning' comes on. I am assuming there is a 10 ltr 'reserve' (a reserve probably won't be 15 ltrs) When I was tanking up the first time, soon after getting out of the dealership I tanked up 48 ltrs. I am also imagining that there is a small space left for diesel fumes.

As I mentioned in my first post, I could actually fill 50 ltr of petrol after driving 3-4 km from dealer showroom. Hence the total capacity is certainly more than 50 ltr usable fuels. My estimate would be 55 ltr. Now regarding reserves, the 'low fuel warning' came after 562 km (trip meter). However, I did tank filling at 608 km (trip meter) with total 41,64 ltrs. My FE came to 14.6 kmpl and I drove 608-562= 46 km between 'low fuel indicator' and full tank filling. Hence, approx. 3.15 ltr I consumed for that. It means, 'Low Fuel Indicator' came after it has consumed (41.64-3.15 = 38.5 ltr). Hence the reserve is approx. 12 ltr minimum as per my observation.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3047016)

Now the only hitch being the long waiting times at the CNG filling stations. I hope this becomes a thing of the past & more CNG stations come up everywhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong guys. but don't the CNG guys have a separate queue for Private/Non-Taxi vehicles at the CNG filling stations? I have seen this to be true at many of the Pumps i frequent in Mumbai!

CNG also gives you added Bandwidth as you can still use the Entire 50 ltrs of Petrol! Comes in handy on Long trips to minimise stops! :D

And Economy or Cost of Ownership was never in Arguement for me! My only glitch was :
1. impact on Longevity of Engine Parts/Engine wear & tear
2.Reliability & frequent breakdowns(if any)
3.Safety
4.Availability of skilled CNG mechanics

Please throw some light on this guys, as i'm otherwise in love with the concept of an alternative/Green fuel Car

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Originally Posted by parassoni (Post 3047534)

Yes, at some petrol pump, you can see a different line for private cars. However, mostly CNG stations have separate queues for Auto and Car (Including Taxis, Private Cars, etc together). We hope that number of CNG Fuel stations increases to keep the pace with increased CNG cars and also it should spread to more cities and towns. I am looking for a job change and if I get a good job in Bangalore (I love to shift there), my CNG car will not be of more use as there is no CNG in Bangalore and that's the biggest threat/Negatives.

Yes the impact on longevity, safety, break-down all will be important to think about before CNG conversion. However, I have not come across any such major break-down due to CNG. Yes I have come across the news of fire in CNG car but that was not due to CNG Gas. Any major accident that cause impact on Petrol Tank is a potential bomb. Guys please correct me if I am wrong but the hydro-test pressure of CNG cylinder is more than Petrol tank of the car. Hence CNG cylinder need more impact to get exploded than petrol tank. In any case, you can not avoid your misfortune even if you are driving in the safest car available in the world.

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian (Post 3062217)

Hi Anil, there have been no updates to this thread for last 2 weeks, hope all is well & you are enjoying your car. Please oblige us with regular updates on this thread.

I could trace a couple of threads on CNG conversion, posting the links below

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...onversion.html (You have added some very useful info in this thread)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...matic-cng.html

Thank AutoIndian for tracking my thread.

Yes, there has been no post since last two weeks. Everything is fine and I do enjoy my every ride with Ertiga. I will soon post my experience of first service along with revised figures of TDCF. Surely the results are more encouraging. clap:

Regarding CNG conversation, I am just waiting to finish my standing liabilities and once I gather the required funds, I will surely do the conversion and will update you with every detail information.

Thanks & Cheers,
Anil

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Originally Posted by AGP (Post 3062222)

Thanks for your prompt response. I believe the first service is at 1K kms. Looking forward to your experience of first service along with revised figures of TDCF.

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Regarding CNG conversation, I am just waiting to finish my standing liabilities and once I gather the required funds, I will surely do the conversion and will update you with every detail information.

This is one item, which many forum members like me are all eyes & ears. I guess you want to first clear (lower the burden) of your car loan. I think that is the right approach. However it would be appreciated if you could give us a tentative timeline for the conversion, e.g. 6 months or 12 months down the line etc.