[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by amalji

Did a comparison of the Amaze's parts replacement interval with that of the competition.

From what we see, Amaze could be as costly or more than a Swift to maintain thanks mainly due to the shorter service intervals. For people who does 15k to 20k per year consistently, the running cost would be more economical per km. But, for 10,000 kms per year people, the Amaze should be costlier to maintain than even a Swift Dzire.

Thanks for the quick comparison.

I guess the overall cost of ownership is something that will us a fair idea.
I would ask you to compute that on atleast on approximate basis.

Since Amaze and Dzire are direct competitors and are similarly priced we need to analyse how much money one actually spends on these cars.
Total cost of ownership = [Cost of the car (including insurance amount paid) + Money spent on fuel + periodic maintenance costs + (comparable unexpected and accidental repairs if any) ]- [Resale value after 5 years]

This is the most crucial aspect of what spend and what we get.

For example :
- Say a dzire and amaze are owned for five years and both cars did 50000 km. If the avg fuel economy is taken as 20kmpl for amaze and 18kmpl for dzire, keeping diesel cost fixed at Rs 50/- , money saved on fuel for amaze in 5 years will be Rs14000/- approx.
- Resale value is an unknown aspect for the new amaze but dzire holds its value very well compared to competition.
Say dzire loses its value by 10% every year and you get approx 65% value at the end of 5 years. Lets assume Etios or Figo or Amaze have slightly inferior resale value and they hold 60% residual value at the end of 5 years. 5% of 8 lakhs = 40000/-

- Since MJD engine is supposed to be most expensive car to maintain as per service schedule compared to Figo or Etios, We need to calculate total expenditure on maintenance for 5 years and see if it is actually balanced by resale value and fuel cost or not. (Dzire is more fuel efficient than Figo)

- Amaze and Dzire top end models are similarly priced. Total cost of ownership comparison will be more fair compared to that of Etios or Figo since the price bracket is different.

- The price of the vehicle is equally important while computing the cost of ownership. We go ga-ga over the low maintenance cost of Innova or Fortuner but tend to forget that these two are overpriced vehicles. Manufacturer manages to juice out of the costumer one way of the other !

[amalji]

Originally Posted by ssbshankar

What I heard from Honda service folks and couple of my friends who own Honda cars (city) is, the intervals specified are to give ensured, safe/trouble free journeys. They do not really mean that Car really requires such intervals. It's more from preventive perspective.

Even Honda uses coolants which lasts for 1 lakh kms and brake fluid which lasts for 3 years. Similarly the Denso fuel filters used on Innova and Etios is simply a different breed and they are designed to last the life of the vehicle. While I do appreciate the overall build quality of a Honda, the service intervals are too frequent.

Originally Posted by ssbshankar

Last week end i did a 300km drive on my 7 year old santro and on the way back I saw two Toyota vehicles (I was really surprised) were off the road with bonnet open. One was private Etios! and another was yellow board Innova.

Incidentally, I've never seen an Innova break down during my 2 lakhs of driving experience. Does in no way mean that Innovas never break down.
Now, a vehicle with bonnet open can even mean re-filling of windshield fluid or shampoo or just checking the fluid levels to ensure a safe journey.
Now, we'll forget all that. We'll just assume that the cars that you saw ceased to work.

The more cars which are released on the road, the more the chances are that you will find such a vehicle. And Diesel vehicles in particular cover more kms than a Petrol. If there's one thing that Toyota excels in, it's regarding durability and service costs. Try buying an innova which has covered 1 Lakh kms on the odo. It will cost you 10 Lakh plus. It's not for the features. But, for the kind of reliability it offers. An innova easily does 3-4 Lakhs hassle free.

Originally Posted by ssbshankar

So far I have not seen any Honda city off the road like this. Probably, this gives some importance to taking preventive measures. I also feel Honda is going bit high on this, but personally feel its better than getting off the road while on a family trip. So far Honda has done well in this aspect of ensuring your trips to be trouble free. We need to see whether it holds good as Honda enters with a Diesel engine.

It's the same with a Toyota, Maruti and Honda. Honda feels better because it has manufactured lesser number of vehicles and covered lesser number of kms ( thanks to Petrol only engines ). 3 months service on a Honda City is too impractical. They have corrected that to some extend on Amaze with 6 months/10,000 kms service interval.
1 year / 10000 would have been ideal and they could have made the 6 months service as optional checkup service the same way Toyota does for Innova instead of forcing the customer to change everything without even an inspection.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Since Amaze and Dzire are direct competitors and are similarly priced we need to analyse how much money one actually spends on these cars.
Total cost of ownership = [Cost of the car (including insurance amount paid) + Money spent on fuel + periodic maintenance costs + (comparable unexpected and accidental repairs if any) ]- [Resale value after 5 years]

Resale value 5 years from now is an unpredictable thing even for the Dzire. for instance, I feel right now that Amaze beats Dzire on almost all aspects and hence will cause a lot of shift in customer base from Dzire to Amaze. With lakhs of DDiS customers in the market right now, that would flood the 2nd hand market with the Swifts and it can take a beating 5 years down the line. Everything is hypothetical. When you compare resale for Toyota, Honda and Maruti 5 years from the purchase date, there is nothing to compare as all of them should fetch almost the same value.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

- The price of the vehicle is equally important while computing the cost of ownership. We go ga-ga over the low maintenance cost of Innova or Fortuner but tend to forget that these two are overpriced vehicles. Manufacturer manages to juice out of the costumer one way of the other !

Make no mistake. Innova is an investment. I've a friend ( to be specific Vinu - owner of Veevees automobile spares, Palarivattom ) who used the following vehicles.

Innova 7 seater taxi ( sold after 1 year and 20,000 kms ) - bought for 10.67, sold for 10.65 ( through olx.in within a day after posting )
Dzire ( sold after 2 years ) - bought for 6.2 and sold for 5.65
Liva GD ( using it for 1.2 years ) - bought for 6.1, got highest asking price of 5.9 lakhs from a customer. Toyota showroom quoted 5.65 for the same car. He is considering the Amaze upgrade and still in 2 minds because of the space available on Liva ( he is 5'10" ). So he asked 6 lakhs to the buyer to buy some time.
Honda City ( using it for 3 years )
Innova 7 seater taxi ( new one - a few days old ) - bought for 12

As you can see there is nothing to chose between these cars. 5 years down the line, it's a completely unpredictable scenario, and it doesn't make sense to do a guess at this point especially when you compare a Honda, Toyota and Maruti.

Missed out on 2 points @turbokick mentioned. So, adding that.

Mileage is again not something which you can compare much for these cars. The ARAI mileage hovers around 22 to 25 for all these cars and there is not much of a difference in real life. It all depends on your driving style. For eg:- an Etios might fetch a higher mileage on highway speeds due to the taller gear ratios while the Amaze might fetch a better mileage on the city due to its fantastic drivability on ultra low rpms. So, again, there is nothing much to differentiate here.

With regards to the lower resale for Figo, it negates that with its amazing VFM on the initial pricing which amounts to lesser opportunity cost after 5 years ( interest on additional amount spent ). Add to that, the utility that it bring in. It has a Dzire like boot and loads of space inside.

[ACM]

^
^^
Honda vehicles (below 10L) do tend to hold value very well. The Honda City holds value quite well considering it is a petrol. (let us now consider the Jazz, there are similar disasters with Maruti as well). The Swift Dzire too holds value well but mainly for the Diesel. The Amaze Diesel can be expected to hold value equally well or even better than the Swift Dzire. They may be assumed to have similar depreciation values for all practial purposes.

For FE giving Amaze a 2 kmpl advantage over the Dzire indeed seems to be the right thing to do.

From maintenance point of view. The two may again be quite similar to maintain i.e. relative to the other costs as a percentage. Brake Pads, Batteries, Tyres etc would most likely cost similar and last similar durations.

So frankly it is best that potential buys tried out both and see which they like to drive, to look at and to sit and then select that one assuming the costs would be similar in the long run or just marginally different at most.

[ssbshankar]

Originally Posted by amalji

The more cars which are released on the road, the more the chances are that you will find such a vehicle. And Diesel vehicles in particular cover more kms than a Petrol. If there's one thing that Toyota excels in, it's regarding durability and service costs. Try buying an innova which has covered 1 Lakh kms on the odo. It will cost you 10 Lakh plus. It's not for the features. But, for the kind of reliability it offers. An innova easily does 3-4 Lakhs hassle free.

I too have high regards to Toyota's quality and durability. However, I m just pointing out my observation with respect to Toyota vehicles in comparison to Honda Cars. I was really surprised and as I said, I hope bonnets were open for minor reasons. 5 years back my friends corolla engine broke down and had to be toed near Davanagere on the way to Mumbai from Bangalore. Again these could be very rare incidents looking at the number of vehicles sold.
I also hinted on Honda that so far its been Petrol for Honda and we need to wait and see how Amaze Diesel lives up.

From what I see Honda's Amaze is in a way, an engineering marvel. Getting close to 100bhp with high fuel efficiency of 25kmpl is simply amazing and looks unrealistic. I have a philosophy where in everything is at some cost of the other. So, in order to live up to this expectation, I think it would cost customer in some other way. May be in terms of maintenance costs?!! I don't know!

[amitk26]

Cost of warranty and free service is always factored in the costing of vehicle and initial sale price. How much a manufacturer wants to fork out for cost of warrany depends on the brand value and pull it can generate from customers.

Since Honda enjoys good brand value and customers are lined up they have minimized the cost to them by shortening the warranty.

The idea of short service intervals 10,000KM or 6 months is to start charging customers sooner.

This does not mean that a customer must maintain 6 months limit post warranty , For maintianing my vehicles I go by KMs rather then time intervel.

Honda is just giving 40,000KM warranty and 3 free services out of these 1 free service will be mandatory after 1st 1000KM so in nutshell you will start paying for service from 2nd year onwards in all cases.

About 25 KMPL from 100BHP 1.5 liter engine there is no magic actually it is featherweight vehicle. See the gauge thickness of the bonnet and compare it to sheet thickness of Tata or Mahindra vehicle simply it needs to pull a lot less weight.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Cost of warranty and free service is always factored in the costing of vehicle and initial sale price. How much a manufacturer wants to fork out for cost of warrany depends on the brand value and pull it can generate from customers.

Since Honda enjoys good brand value and customers are lined up they have minimized the cost to them by shortening the warranty.

The idea of short service intervals 10,000KM or 6 months is to start charging customers sooner.

This does not mean that a customer must maintain 6 months limit post warranty , For maintianing my vehicles I go by KMs rather then time intervel.

Good point made.

Originally Posted by amitk26

About 25 KMPL from 100BHP 1.5 liter engine there is no magic actually it is featherweight vehicle. See the gauge thickness of the bonnet and compare it to sheet thickness of Tata or Mahindra vehicle simply it needs to pull a lot less weight.

@amitk - It's only as feather light as the Dzire and Etios. So, 25 kmpl from 100 PS 200 Nm engine is still magical.

[rajshenoy]

Originally Posted by amalji

Don't quite agree with that statement. With good brakes and decent dynamics, 100 kmph is quite safe. Many highways have a speed limit set as 80 to 90 kmph. And these roads are designed for 100 plus speeds. I agree that speeding should not be encouraged. But at the same time, do not agree to blanket statements like 'Indian highways are not good to cruise at 3 digit speeds'

Agreed, do you stick to the speed limit always? I find that speed limit on most roads outdated and unscientific. Our roads and cars have improved a lot and many of the Indian highways can handle 3 digit speeds quite easily.

1. 3 digit speeds are not race car speeds.
2. Top speed discussion is just to see the capability of the car. Doesn't mean someone has to drive at that speed. Gives a relative idea about the speeds at which the engine will feel relaxed for cruising.

Don't take me literally when i say triple digit speeds. As per me, 120kmph is typically the maximum speed one can do while still staying in good control. I do not want to disclose high speed achievements in public as i feel its against the spirit of this forum and that is what i felt like sharing

I mostly drive on the toll roads and the western ghat roads so definition of safe speed on both varies isn't it?

Anyway its going too far. I am following this thread as i am a respective buyer and would love to hear more valuable information such as comparisons between amaze and etios etc.

Coming to debate over 6 month service intervals, at least for diesels 10000km in six month is reasonable isn't it? If usage is lesser than this why buy diesel anyway?

[romeomidhun]

Was in touch with a Honda sales manager, and he mentioned that the booking is much higher than their expectation, and it might have crossed the 20K mark, as the waiting period given is 3-4 months. He also pointed out that many City sales are converted to Amaze Diesel, and also customers are coming from the Swift, Verna, Polo, Etios, Vento and i20 pavilions and so, it is not only the DZire who is affected. What he mentioned is what I said earlier in this forum - for customers looking outside the Maruti stable for their next car, they got an excellent product worth considering, and Amaze is the toughest competitor for DZire.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Don't take me literally when i say triple digit speeds. As per me, 120kmph is typically the maximum speed one can do while still staying in good control. I do not want to disclose high speed achievements in public as i feel its against the spirit of this forum and that is what i felt like sharing

Got your point.

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Anyway its going too far. I am following this thread as i am a respective buyer and would love to hear more valuable information such as comparisons between amaze and etios etc.

No doubt amaze is a fantastic car in most respects. I couldn't do a test drive till now thanks to the crappy sales experience at Peninsular Honda, Marad, Kochi. More on that later because we are still in talks with their sales head.

But, I travelled in the rear seat for 3 kms and could 'feel' the pull right from the word go. There is zero turbo lag.

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Coming to debate over 6 month service intervals, at least for diesels 10000km in six month is reasonable isn't it? If usage is lesser than this why buy diesel anyway?

I know many Diesel users who do around 10 to 12k per month. So, for such people, they might want to be aware of the service interval as well before taking the plunge.

As you said, with the government's new policies, Diesel will become less desirable in the future. There will still be people who buy diesel for the addictive torque even if it doesn't make economic sense. For Indian driving conditions, high torque from low to mid rpms makes a lot of sense. And the clutch of Amaze is ultra light and have a short travel ( I tried it out in idle ). So, as far as effort goes, it's as easy as driving a Petrol.

[sugato_basu]

Test drove both Diesel & Petrol models today at Highway Honda, Bhubaneswar .. must admit - a fantastic car in all respects

[thoma]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

I was really surprised to see how well-proportioned the car looks. It doesn't give a small car feeling at all unlike the Brio. For a sub four metre car, the design is really amazing.

Saw a batch of Amaze' being transported to the dealership at my place. Two of them being checked out (either by owners or the sales representatives or may be test driving customers) by the road side just some distance far away from the dealership. I have to completely agree that it doesn't give a small car feeling at all unlike the Brio. Yes, the Brio have steep shoulder lines; but somehow, this does not look bad on the Amaze. All that I'm skeptical on the Amaze is how well the first diesel engine from Honda (in India?) will stand the test of time. Else, the design is good, the name is good, the FE excellent on paper and the pricing is also good.

Though late, please allow me to pen down a line of applause for GTO and Vid6639 for their wonderful reviews.

[shypals]

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

It is not clear, if you are referring here to the petrol or diesel Amaze test drive. If it is the latter then I am quite surprised. Though I respect your opinion, it is hard to believe. If you look at the first page of this thread where GTO has done a comparison with Dzire & Sail, the Amaze has far superior figures of Power/Weight & Torque/Weight.



Also refer the below section from the opening page, where GTO has mentioned that "the Amaze blows the Dzire away"

I had test driven the diesel version. I tried to rev up the engine at idling but it did not go above 2k rpm. I thought they must have locked the rpm @ idle to 2k. This could be to save fuel but personally I'd like to feel the response of an engine to the accelerator displacement before I move. I started to move eventually with dealer representative on side and 2 customers on the back. It moved smoothly with no drag as I experienced in the SAIL at low RPM, but when I floored ( this is my way of testing engine) the reponse was pretty gradual unlike the surge of adrenaline I experienced in the SAIL - almost like a flight take off. Looking at the statistics and GTO reviews, I must say I was surprised. I am still not concluding anything and plan to test another AMAZE diesel at other dealer in town this weekend. Hope my experience matches to the comparison numbers!

[ssbshankar]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Was in touch with a Honda sales manager, and he mentioned that the booking is much higher than their expectation, and it might have crossed the 20K mark, as the waiting period given is 3-4 months. He also pointed out that many City sales are converted to Amaze Diesel, and also customers are coming from the Swift, Verna, Polo, Etios, Vento and i20 pavilions and so, it is not only the DZire who is affected. What he mentioned is what I said earlier in this forum - for customers looking outside the Maruti stable for their next car, they got an excellent product worth considering, and Amaze is the toughest competitor for DZire.

As I expressed some time earlier in this thread, Honda is all set to kill its own car, City.
Reason?
- Rear seat space is as good as City (diff in width is 15mm or 1.5cms).
- You get a Honda branded diesel car with boot at less than the price of City, which saves atleast 1Lakh from cost of car and a whole lot with fuel charges.
- Few customers were looking at City because, they did not have Amaze. I mean, there was nothing from Honda in this segment.
- Steering, clutch and many more feels like City, if not better.
- Even, petrol Amaze high end is perfect for city drives and why anybody now really need City?
I know over a period of time Honda City has gathered huge fan following (including me). However, under current economic conditions if I get some thing like City at lesser price, why not?
Again, City Killed Civic and now Amaze is set to kill City! Its all for good btw.
Though Dzire is out of contest, due to Maruti's service coverage, it would still rule in tier-2/tier-3 cities and rural markets.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by amalji

From what we see, Amaze could be as costly or more than a Swift to maintain thanks mainly due to the shorter service intervals. For people who does 15k to 20k per year consistently, the running cost would be more economical per km. But, for 10,000 kms per year people, the Amaze should be costlier to maintain than even a Swift Dzire.

I had been an ardent admirer of your comparative studies. I completely agree now that Amaze could be costlier to maintain than even a Swift Dzire.

I do between 18K to 20K km per year constantly, and believe me, I do this in a compact city called Kolkata. Even for me, I would be sceptical for people like us who do this kind of travelling in city.

One, because ARAI figures of FE are not exact in troublesome city driving conditions, especially in Kolkata. Many of my friends drive in their Beat Diesel in this city and I get a better average in my Liva here (19 in winters, and 18 with AC on condition) though the ARAI figures are lesser for Liva and Beat diesel is just fractions short of the theroretical FE count of the Amaze. So I'll prefer to wait till I know how Amaze reacts to "non-test drive conditions".

And of course, I would remain sceptical till a new diesel engine is tested for at least 1 lakh km by actual owners.

OT: Kolkata is getting flooded with luxury taxis which are all Maruti Dzires, with black bumpers and a "Maruti Swift Dzire Tour" logo embedded on the right side of the boot. Here luxury taxis are either Tata Indigo or Swift Dzire. My question to people who think that Taxi image actually harms a brand. How would they react to this?

[rohit_dce]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

D


Anyway its going too far. I am following this thread as i am a respective buyer and would love to hear more valuable information such as comparisons between amaze and etios etc.

Coming to debate over 6 month service intervals, at least for diesels 10000km in six month is reasonable isn't it? If usage is lesser than this why buy diesel anyway?

Dude you are just like me! I have owned Etios, booked Amaze Owned petrol one, booked Amaze Diesel. The Amaze offers a way premium interior quality and fuel efficiency! The space is great too! And as far as the interval debate is concerned, totally on your side!