[mitra615]

Originally Posted by amalji

Go for the Amaze. It's worth it.

The interiors are still holding me back (
Its true that it does not give me the feeling of driving a ~9L car.

Originally Posted by ag408

mitra615 - I was/ am in the same position as you and I was quite confused between the Amaze and the i20. One of the biggest things going against the i20 was that it is the same engine like the i10 (that I currently own) and hence does not offer anything different in terms of the driving experience. I think this would be a factor for you as well. The i20 though offers so many features that the Amaze pales in comparison.

Am still oscillating between my two choices (i20 vs Amaze). Great that you decided, albeit on a third car )

Furthermore, to increase to the milieu,the sales guy has been promising to send the proforma invoice last Saturday, but, is yet to do so( Btw,my initial experience at Dakshin Honda ,Hosur Rd was not bad).Going by most people's experience here, that makes me feel that some things probably dont change.

So, the big question remains...

To Amaze or not to Amaze..

[humyum]

Originally Posted by agambhandari

Practically, none of the limitations made by Honda in the ECU make a difference:

-Nobody will ever rev a diesel to >2000 Rpm before on a standstill which would also fry the clutch

-Even the best expressways in our country have a speed limit of 100-120 kmph, Anything over that is illegal anyway, unless you are buying an Amaze as a track day car(which you are most probably aren't), it doesn't make any sense to go over 140 anyway.

This is a small , sensible family car, not a track machine made to corner hard at over 150 kmph

- Regarding your first point - You will never ever be able to climb some of the roads in Kashmir for starters with the 2000 rpm cap. Not Leh able, Not Rotangable and definitely not Kargilable. When I can vote, have a legal age to drink, legal age to drive, does Honda think I am not mature enough to think that launching is a vehicle at insane rpm's is detrimental for the car ? I know many car's have this feature but its being too much of a nanny by the manufacturer.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by humyum

When I am spending so much money on an Amaze, can I not have my 20 to 30 seconds once in a while ?

+1. As much as I'm a fan of this fantastic engine, I'm that much disappointed with Honda for putting these limits.

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by humyum

... When I am spending so much money on an Amaze, can I not have my 20 to 30 seconds once in a while ?

One can quite surely get their ECU re-flashed to override the pre-set speed limit. They may have done it to ensure the engine is run-in properly. There could be other reasons too as this is a new product in the market.

As far as I'm concerned, I know if I wish for the above, say 'n' number of times, looking at the accident figures in India, I'd be thankful for them to put that limit 'n+1' times. I'm sure many others think the same way.

[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by humyum

- Regarding your first point - You will never ever be able to climb some of the roads in Kashmir for starters with the 2000 rpm cap. Not Leh able, Not Rotangable and definitely not Kargilable. When I can vote, have a legal age to drink, legal age to drive, does Honda think I am not mature enough to think that launching is a vehicle at insane rpm's is detrimental for the car ? I know many car's have this feature but its being too much of a nanny by the manufacturer.

Launching at higher revs helps to build up torque, but in case of these diesel engines like the i-DTEC, max amount of torque is available from under 2000 Rpm. So you won't need to go over 2000 revs

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by amalji

1. Makes sense. I hope, this 2000 rpm limit is only for the Diesels.

2. If Traffic rules are the criteria, every manufacturer should set the speed limit as 120 kmph. .....

1. Yes, nothing in petrol.
2. Traffic rules are not the only reason, most higher end cars have a limiter (even the Veyron needs a key inserted to breach this), and it could be the tyres, etc. which lead to this limit.

As I said pretty soon some tuner will have a ECU remap which does away with the 2000rpm and speed limits, which also upping the output. I am sure Honda have been über conservative in tuning the engine.

[amitk26]

I think this 2000 RPM limit and kmph 140 limit is because they are being overcautious with unproven engine for first time. If there engine runs at top of the performance curve lots of hidden things get uncovered but then it is labelled unreliable by first batch of buyers and after couple of years with several updates the engine ( including HP fuel lines , injectors , ECU , Fuel pump etc) gets stablized.

Suppose if word unreliable gets attached with Honda diesel engine then they are finished forever in Indian market so they are playing safe.

[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by amalji

If Traffic rules are the criteria, every manufacturer should set the speed limit as 120 kmph. Even in the US, Ferraris should be having speed limit of 160 kmph. But, that's far from what the reality is. There is no point, cribbing about the rule book when in reality, the requirements are quite different. People who are so particular about rule book can buy a speed governer which limits the speed at 120 kmph. But, there are others who do not adhere to the idea and that's why most cars in India ( even Alto for that matter which can do 170 kmph ) doesn't have a speed limit set ( even when it can easily be set by the manufacturer using a line of code in the ECU ).

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Coming to the point of overspeeding, I understand that speed limits & enforcement rules are quite different as we move towards South as compared to what we have in North. When I drive to places in Haryana & Punjab I come across multiple speed guns en-route to my destination (s), & this is done regularly, as compared to special drives by traffic police down South.

I bet this is why our members in South often quote unmentionable speeds in the forum.

Originally Posted by humyum

I hope you do, 40 kmph on bridges, 60 kilometres on inner city roads, and 80 to 100 kilometres on highways all the time. Having a little fun is not out of bounds for most of us. You sure don't think those 'Longest Distance Travelled' in a day thread on team-bhp had all those 1000 km and 1500 km trips done at 80 and 100's ?
1

Well I don't follow the traffic rules.....Why? I can't drive ,at least not on public roads, look at profile and look at my age.
My Dad does, and followed the 100 Kmph speed limit on the NH1 when we recently had to visit Jalandhar last weekend.
My Dad was caught overspeeding once, where? Near the outskirts of Delhi....Why? We saw no sign telling about the reduced speed limit of only 70 Km/h (from the original 90 Kmph on the rest of NH1), so we were caught at 81 Kmph in a honda city.

Giving you the option of extra speed is upto the manufacturer, they are making the car. Most of the times, you won't actually use the extra speed(in fact, never if you are a law abiding citizen), but all most of us want is the feeling that the engine isn't quite done yet, it can still do more, which I believe is delivered more than enough in case of the i-DTEC.

Tried 2000 rpm launches at Zozila, Kargil etc and the car stalled like the engine was not even switched on. So no, that theory does not work all the time, in the cities or Mahabaleshwar type roads yes, but not in Kashmir. I am not saying Kashmir is a benchmark, but hey, now will the RPM limit decide, where I can take the car and where I can't too ?

Was this is case of the i-DTEC? So how did you finally manage to start the car? Push?

[humyum]

Originally Posted by amitk26

I think this 2000 RPM limit and kmph 140 limit is because they are being overcautious with unproven engine for first time. If there engine runs at top of the performance curve lots of hidden things get uncovered but then it is labelled unreliable by first batch of buyers and after couple of years with several updates the engine ( including HP fuel lines , injectors , ECU , Fuel pump etc) gets stablized.

Suppose if word unreliable gets attached with Honda diesel engine then they are finished forever in Indian market so they are playing safe.

A company like Honda would not launch its engine line up without field testing it for thousands and thousands of kilometres, bench testing it for hours at variable rpms including high rpms to test all the components.

Originally Posted by agambhandari

Well I don't follow the traffic rules.....Why? I can't drive ,at least not on public roads, look at profile and look at my age.
My Dad does, and followed the 100 Kmph speed limit on the NH1 when we recently had to visit Jalandhar last weekend.
My Dad was caught overspeeding once, where? Near the outskirts of Delhi....Why? We saw no sign telling about the reduced speed limit of only 70 Km/h (from the original 90 Kmph on the rest of NH1), so we were caught at 81 Kmph in a honda city.

Giving you the option of extra speed is upto the manufacturer, they are making the car. Most of the times, you won't actually use the extra speed(in fact, never if you are a law abiding citizen), but all most of us want is the feeling that the engine isn't quite done yet, it can still do more, which I believe is delivered more than enough in case of the i-DTEC.



Was this is case of the i-DTEC? So how did you finally manage to start the car? Push?

If you have not driven the Amaze or any car for that matter, how do you know its 'just enough'? A law abiding citizens most of us are, but that does not given the manufacturer any right to 'Talibanise' my product.

No, it was not the I-Dtec, but swift and amaze have similar torque to weight ratios, 189 NM/ Ton compared to 181 NM/Ton of the Swift. Nor 2000 rpm, nor 3000 nor 4000 rpm launches could get her up on some of the stretches, although 4000 rpm launch did move the car a wee bit before people behind had to push her out, but you see what I mean. Like I said before, going to Ladakh is not a benchmark, but 'WHAT IF' ? Will Honda decide now where I can and cannot take my car ?

Such things are best left at the discretion of the user, When to launch, what speed to drive etc etc. You make an engine, you state the mileage figures, then you leave it at that and not nanny a user into driving the way Honda believes is best for him.

Lets agree to disagree.

[ACM]

The Rev and Speed limits might indeed be required to protect the engine.

20-30 secs over 2000 rpm from standstill is quite a lot actually.

The limit in rpm will not be an issue in climbing hills with rough roads due to a reasonable power band.

The speed limit is good. It will only prevent accidents. The engine must be capable of doing a lot more but the Chassis may not be able to take the speed.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by humyum

A company like Honda would not launch its engine line up without field testing it for thousands and thousands of kilometres, bench testing it for hours at variable rpms including high rpms to test all the components.
.

What makes you think they won't do that ?

If Toyota can detune D4D engine severly in Innova in India then why not Honda ? Do you think Toyota engine would have earned reputation of being super reliable if these restrictions were not imposed. AFAIK a very small minority of Innvova owners do ECU tunning but suppose if this was done by say 90% of users surely there would have been more wear and tear issues and reputation of engine rebuild around 80K KM just like Hyundai Accent engine.

Honda is a company which sold cars in India with faulty power windows and deaths were reported in 2007 Citi but no hype and hoopla just 2 weeks back an Accord burnt in Delhi and no nano like coverage perhaps that kind of public scrutiny is exclusive for Tatas. In fact no business is run by saints the objective is to maximise profits so I wont give them undue credit in abscence of proof.

Coming back to 2000RPM rev limiting it depends on torque curve and gearing.

Actually in most CR Diesel engines torque curve is of inverted U shape and if you revvv below or beyond the peak torque point you will have difficulty in driving uphill. In Safari the peak torque is at 2500 RPM ( Quoting because this is the vehicle I drive and know about). This is fundamental difference between Diesel and Petrol engines.

I am surprised that you could not drive Swift below 4000RPM in Ladakh was it a Diesel swift ?

In fact there is no need to go to Ladkah you can test it out fairly well in any of the ill designed ramps of parking lots in India. Our architects do ensure that ramp of parking lot is atleast 30-40 degrees with sharp turn to provide this test bed

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by humyum

Such things are best left at the discretion of the user, When to launch, what speed to drive etc etc. You make an engine, you state the mileage figures, then you leave it at that and not nanny a user into driving the way Honda believes is best for him.

Lets agree to disagree.

I trust Honda has employed resources that are Qualified to decide what is the best use of a product THEY developed. You can judge/be put-off as a consumer, yet that doesn't solicit them being labelled as a 'Nanny' for the technical choices they opt for their product.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by ACM

The speed limit is good. It will only prevent accidents. The engine must be capable of doing a lot more but the Chassis may not be able to take the speed.

If this is the case, then the Swift Dzire is any day a superior car than the Amaze in terms of performance because I never felt the Dzire chasis incapable of handling 160 kmph.

My personal opinion is that Honda is

• either hiding something here or
• They are being too cautious.

[ACM]

^^ Yep maybe there is something iffy about the performance at very high speeds. But I don't really see anything wrong in a company responsibly restricting that. It through is also possible that this may not have much to do with the chassis but with some other component or even the Engine itself. It is of course a new engine that they have developed. The Japs do normally prefer to play safe and avoid any issues related to reliability even if at the cost of excitement.

[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by humyum

No, it was not the I-Dtec, but swift and amaze have similar torque to weight ratios, 189 NM/ Ton compared to 181 NM/Ton of the Swift.

Such things are best left at the discretion of the user, When to launch, what speed to drive etc etc. You make an engine, you state the mileage figures, then you leave it at that and not nanny a user into driving the way Honda believes is best for him.

Lets agree to disagree.

I'm happy agreeing to disagree but keep in mind these points as well

There have been several cases, where a user damages a car(not obeying the advisory in the manual), and then publicly defacing the company for the same. I think Honda has found a way to advise you of the capabilities of you car.

Swift and Amaze may have similar torque(max) but the way it is delivered is different. You can check how people complain about the turbo lag in the Swift. In that case, the revs over 2000 rpm may be required.