[rajwheelz]

Nice review !

I faced the same dilemma when upgrading to MUV from a hatchback.
Innova/Xylo/Ertiga.

The main deal breaker for an Innova, in my opinion, is the pricing. I doubt if a normal salaried class person would shell out so much for a base variant when he can get a top end of Ertiga ( Which again in my opinion is the best VFM of the lot ). Cabbies wouldn't mind. They would break even faster with higher per hour rates for an Innova.

I almost booked a Xylo, but had vehement opposition from home and settled for an Ertiga. I was unhappy initially. But boy !, am i pleased !. Light on my pocket, good enough driving pleasure and overall very much satisfied with what I am getting for the EMI i am paying.

[samm]

Originally Posted by Contrapunto

... and can aver that that while it won't win any beauty contest, it does its job with no fuss and I am confident I will not have to replace it before its 15 year life tax period ends.

I agree with you.
To add, I've been reading various posts on the front and rear looks. This discussion happened on V2, V3, and now V4. My opinion is that looks are personal - i don't believe too many cars sell on just looks.

Now, coming to whether its good, bad or ugly - compare with its competition, whatever little exists. Aria, Evalia, Enjoy, Xylo, Tavera, and Ertiga which is an exception from sales perspective.

Not too difficult to know why the looks isn't going to be of any significance. From the front looks, I guess even the latest one isn't too bad. From another perspective, I would say, its different. In the western countries, and even some of the Asian countries there are cars of any kind of look that one can imagine.

Originally Posted by dhuli

I did the same by waiting 2010 through 2011 before settling on the Innova instead of Aria. No regrets though except the wait was costly...the prices shot up by a lakh ex showroom in Bangalore.

Echoing Parrys points I agree with the value for money concept being stretched, albeit keeping it attractive given the engineering. Secondly, I do think a 6th gear for those long drives would do a world of good in terms of comfort.

My wish for Innova facelift is those sleek Audi style roof rails in chrome. I am so tempted to get it done!

Right, I too ended up paying the 1L extra, for the exact same car. Was 3-4L extra compared to closest competition, but absolutely happy with the car, except for the badly needed 6th gear from a FE perspective rather than speed perspective.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by samm

Right, I too ended up paying the 1L extra, for the exact same car. Was 3-4L extra compared to closest competition, but absolutely happy with the car, except for the badly needed 6th gear from a FE perspective rather than speed perspective.

Agree with you that Innova needs 6th gear. But w.r.to FE when you compare with competition like say Xylo/Tavera/Evalia, Innova just delivers what competition does(may be slightly better as well).
I initially did not believe with cabbies/fellow owners when i met them during service that Innova's FE increases once you cross 1lac KM. To my surprise i am witnessing that. Currently getting 13-14KM/l(close to 15 at rear occasions) on highway and 11-12 in town. This is a Km or two more than what i used to get initially.

Coming to Innova, I feel it is still one of the best cars sold in India for following reasons:
1. Status Guaranteed:It is a car preferred by common man/celebrities/politicians and hence Innova gets you the respect.
2.Bulletproof reliability: After driving over a lac KM, the Engine sounds same as it was on day 1, may be more refined.This is like Curious case of Benjamin Button.
3.Comfort/Ergonomics. Apart from its large size, 6 years on and i am yet to find a fault. You will find everything where it is supposed to be and they hardly break.
4.Trust worthy features:The Innova lacks all those flashy gizmos, which works to its favor. All the electronics it has are tried and tested. This helps the reliability factor.
5. Drivability: Its next to impossible to stall an Innova. Lag is something unheard off.A brake which stops the car promptly. A perfect driving position coupled with comfortable suspension setup.

Generally we call its time to sell when a car crosses 1lac, but with Innova its going to be a different story. I still feel it can be driven across almost anywhere with 1lac on ODO without worrying of its age.

To conclude with current plethora of options available, only one thing can replace an Innova, another Innova

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by GTO

Nothing to do with reliability. Consider the Fortuner: It makes 56.33 BHP / Liter (169 BHP from a 3.0L engine) and is just as reliable. The Innova's BHP / Liter output is merely 40.4.

And remember, for the same driving situation, you won't need to revv a high-powered engine as high as you would one with a lower power spec. Lesser rpm = lesser wear & tear.

GTO,

a> What is the basis for your comment on the fortuner engine (I suppose the comment is on engine) being as reliable as innova. Apples to apples comparison can be done only when a lot of engines have done similar mileage over similar terrain - unsure if such data is available. in normal life, Innovas crank up a lot of mileage compared to fortuners because of 1) Commercial usage and 2) more comfortable ride over long distances, whether it is by being more settled or having lower body roll and thus simply a preferred vehicle for longer distances. Maybe fortuner is as reliable, and maybe it is more expensive to maintain (in which case cabbies wont buy it --a major market for Innova) but I cannot immediately make that inference.

b> RPM is only one part of the story and if that was the whole story, Scorpio and Xylo engines by definition would be significantly more reliable, given the more relaxed gearing. We all know that is not the case..What is the tolerence between parts, crankshaft stress (Owing to the "Power" produced per stroke..higher crankshaft stress puts more load on the bearings and wobbles the piston against the walls that much more (matereial being same)...lubrication (2KDV-FTV and 1KD-FTV have different engine and piston designs..even if ever so slightly different) could be different and hence affect reliability.

c> More power means more stress on every part of the transmission chain - pistons, crankshaft, gearbox, rear propeller, differential etc..there will finally be an optimum where wear and tear upside because of lower rpm catches up with higher transmission stress because of engine power, higher fuel consumption because of big displacement and, not to forget, higher block weight reducing fuel economy. Also bigger, reliable, high power engine means a more expensive engine. I am not for a moment suggesting that put a 1 litre engine in Innova..all I am saying is that there will be an optimum between a 1 litre engine and a 5 litre engine... and Toyota would have tried their best to find it for Innova, a vehicle that has both commercial and Individual use. Making different designs for either would sub optimize economies of scale I guess (Toyota best equipped to answer)

Do you really believe that Toyota set out to make Innova less reliable when all that was required to make it a bit more reliable was to either add an additional tooth in the gearing and add a VGT turbo (Lower rpm and a higher powered engine).

It is ultimately about constraints...to provide best value at a price point and I believe Toyota has done a very good job there...

[venkyhere]

we have seen umpteen number of actors/actresses who :
1) make an impact on arrival, show good talent & dont demand much money
2) progressively hone their skills; at the same time hire/choose better make-up & better costumes - also start demanding more money but industry/market thinks the money demand is reasonable for the talent level on offer.
3) skill level plateau's off (nothing new/better to show), but still invest in how they look & some people start finding them 'not as good looking as before' - now they are demanding lots of money
4) very old now, hence go to a plastic surgeon to 'correct' but end up looking ghastly. "Seemingly" unaware of this, out of arrogance, still demand astronomical sums of money => end of career is very near.

1,2,3,4 above - exactly what happened with gen1,2,3,4 innova.
I rest my case.

[samm]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Generally we call its time to sell when a car crosses 1lac, but with Innova its going to be a different story. I still feel it can be driven across almost anywhere with 1lac on ODO without worrying of its age.

To conclude with current plethora of options available, only one thing can replace an Innova, another Innova

When I was looking around for a car, this is what help me finalize! The car I test drove was 70K km on its ODO, and I initially thought they had given be a brand new car to drive! It was simply too good. Sure, it was a showroom car and was well maintained. But the cars from competitors even with just 17K on the ODO felt like driving a 150K km car.

There was no more looking around, even if it costed 3+ Lac more.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

we have seen umpteen number of actors/actresses who :
1) make an impact on arrival, show good talent & dont demand much money
2) progressively hone their skills; at the same time hire/choose better make-up & better costumes - also start demanding more money but industry/market thinks the money demand is reasonable for the talent level on offer.
3) skill level plateau's off (nothing new/better to show), but still invest in how they look & some people start finding them 'not as good looking as before' - now they are demanding lots of money
4) very old now, hence go to a plastic surgeon to 'correct' but end up looking ghastly. "Seemingly" unaware of this, out of arrogance, still demand astronomical sums of money => end of career is very near.

1,2,3,4 above - exactly what happened with gen1,2,3,4 innova.
I rest my case.

Innova never sold based on its looks. If that was the case,it would be a sales dud right from day 1. Even if Toyota calls to stop innova i bet people will continue to buy it just like day 1.

Innova is like Salman Khan, u deliver as u grow older. Just like his movies which has the same tried and tested masala which is what masses want, Innova has same old underpinnings with different makeup.

[csateesh]

Simple way to summarize would be

- There isn't any other people mover more comfortable than Innova especially the captain seats.

Sample this - All of last week I was going around in an Innova. It was in very good condition but the vehicle has already run 2.2 lacs and there is no give away about it.

USP is its comfort and indestructible reliability.

I have many people who have chosen the Innova over XUV though the latter is real good value for money

But this is the worst facelift from Toyota

[rajneeesh]

Originally Posted by Thilak29

"• The price seems to go unusually high with time! In 2005, the top-end diesel used to cost 10 lakhs (ex-showroom Delhi). That has gone up by 50% now. The Tata Aria's top variant (with all-wheel-drive, 6 airbags, ESP + traction control, front & rear disc brakes, GPS navigation and more) is priced lower than the Innova ZX. And that's not counting the heavy discounts available on the Aria. "

INR has lost its purchasing power too over the period of 8 years. Hence we can't really argue price just going up while commodity remained same.

Well the INR has depeciated but that is not something that would have effected Toyota had they pursued an aggressive indigenisation programme. Toyodid not do it as they could get away with it and the Indian market was absorbing all the Innovas they could produce.

The Innova plant is well depreciated now. Moreover, the volumes and better cost efficiencies would have enabled them to keep the cost in check. I read Sandeep Singh from Totota saying one rupee depreciation by 1 against the USD effects the company profitability by Rs 80 Crores P.A. . If Toyaota can't indegenise what has been an 8 year old product shows that they intend to take advantage of the leninient imprort regime from SE Asia and pursue Screw Driver technology rather than invest in making India a major design and production hub. This has made Toyota a one trick pony with none of their other products ( save the Fortuner) moving in any great numbers.

The prices of Hyundai and Maruti models have not been impacted all that much by depreciation of the INR. An Alto is still around 3 Lakhs after all these years and if I remember correctlt the Santro is just a shde more expensve than the Rs 2.99 Lakh it was launche at in 1998-99.

As a matter of fact companies like Hyundai use the depeciating INR in their favour to export more.

[rajneeesh]

Tata Aria could have been a good competitior to the Innova. However, by picing it sky high TATA ensured that it was still born. I sure hope that Tata gives the Aria a different look ( it looks too much like the Indica) and resolves the niggling issues with quality and boost the sales &service experience for the customer.

The vehicle otherwise has not too much that is wrong with it and comes with a decent price. If only it comes with the same "peace of mind factor" that one gets on purchasing an Innova, it will be a winner.

[BUXX]

OMG. one could literally buy two Ertiga ZDI for the price of one top end Innova!

[dean5545]

Actually if I was hell-bent on buying the Innova again then I will buy the VX-variant and not the ZX variant.It doesn't loose out on any of the safety features nor does it loose the rear camera & touch screen.I save roughly Rs 50,000& if I buy the GX version I loose out on the passenger side airbag,touch-screen rear camera & opitron meter,But I save a cool Rs2,50,000 on the ex-showroom price.
Also Toyota guys are offering free navigation&leather seats with the GX model.

So if one can sacrifice passenger side airbag and the opitron meter the GX version makes a good buy at Rs.12,36,188 ex-showroom Thane.

The point I am trying to make with this post is that the Innova in its GX version still retains some of its VFM factor if you compare it with the likes of the Renault Duster&Nissan Terrano whose base 110bhp models starts at Rs11,00,000.

[mroptimist]

Wonderful review parrys rated well deserved 5 stars.

I thought of starting an ownership thread but after reading your review I am not so inclined to start one.

Only upgrades I have done to my Innova are installation of Spider tuning box (from Redrooster Performance) and BMC Air Filter, writing about these may be useful to fellow BHPians.

Slightly OT: Is it possible to replace the present turbo (FGT I suppose) with VNT (Variable Nozzle Turbo) of the Fortuner from Thailand which generates 42 BHP more after the warranty is over? Engine is identical I think.

Might start an ownership thread in a month or two.

Thanks.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by Buffetfan

It is ultimately about constraints...to provide best value at a price point and I believe Toyota has done a very good job there...

Very good job done indeed but for the year 2005 when it was launched, not in the year 2013 when there are other options available.

As the market dynamics change, so should the manufacturer. You can apply the logic if it ain't broke then don't fix it only upto a certain level.

When the Innova was launched, the performance was one of the best since Mahindra was giving a 2.6L engine and Tata was giving a 3.0L.

Over the years technology has developed but Toyota has stuck with the same aging formula.

Like I mentioned before, The same 2.5L engine is available in the Fortuner with a VGT developing 144 BHP so reliability has nothing to do with it. And I'm wondering how you mis quoted GTO as Innova being less reliable.

Renault is able to get 110PS from a 1.5L motor, agreed that there is turbo lag but 102 BHP in this day and age is pretty mediocre whichever way you look at it.

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Like I mentioned before, The same 2.5L engine is available in the Fortuner with a VGT developing 144 BHP so reliability has nothing to do with it. And I'm wondering how you mis quoted GTO as Innova being less reliable.

Renault is able to get 110PS from a 1.5L motor, agreed that there is turbo lag but 102 BHP in this day and age is pretty mediocre whichever way you look at it.

Agree that GTO did not quote Innova as being less reliable, regret the typo. But he did quote that higher power / lower rpm means less wear and tear - I thought he implied reliability here, even if so indirectly.

And to your point, I do not know that the 2.5 VGT fortuner is "As reliable" as the innova. Note that here I include engine life as part of reliability.. ..tell me why VGTs are not put in Innova if all that is required is one item that will probably cost INR 30000 more or so (My guess). Maybe the answer lies in reduced long term life (indirectly ..reliability) because of this combo and maybe, just maybe, the current combo has higher engine life that cabbies need instead of 30 extra horses that will probably guzzle more fuel and frontload the overhaul!

All I am saying is that incremental innovation in the current combo is not easy, maybe transformational innovation is the need of the hour.