[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Puneet0051

1 year wait to get G20 in sports diesel variant at similar price point as progressive c220d.

The G20 320D Sport variant was discontinued in March 2020. Diesel available only in Luxury Line starting at 47.5L ex-showroom.

[Puneet0051]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

The G20 320D Sport variant was discontinued in March 2020. Diesel available only in Luxury Line starting at 47.5L ex-showroom.

My bad didn't realise, luxury variant has too much of chrome.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

If someone is spending close to Rs 50 lac on a luxury sedan which also is a sportier car to drive many people actually look out for such things when buying with their own money. It's ok if the intent is only a review. BTW, this is the logic given by Porsche sales guys as well, who try to pitch a 911 or a 718 with a plastic dashboard worst than a Maruti 10 lac car.

But, that's me and I may be totally wrong and many people won't care as you said.

Since you brought in the 718 interiors, I am quoting from an earlier thread of mine on the interiors of the 718 - which is probably relevant here too.

Originally Posted by AMG Power

The last Ferrari to be approved by Enzo Ferrari was the F40. Enzo had a desire to leave a legacy in his final supercar and wanted the car to be truly special. In the words of the Ferrari marketing department - "We wanted the car to be very fast sporting in the extreme and (this is the important bit) - Spartan. Customers had been saying our cars were becoming too plush and comfortable.. The F40 is for the 'most enthusiastic' of our owners who want nothing but sheer performance".

And so accordingly was the final car to be approved by Enzo Ferrari signed off into production.

It had plastic windshield and windows, no sound system - , no power windows, no glove box, no leather trim and, heck, even no carpets. The only concession was air conditioning. The first 50 cars produced only had sliding windows but the later cars were accorded the "comfort" of wind down windows.

That was Enzo Ferrari's idea of a car that would appeal to the true enthusiast and leave a lasting legacy in his name.

To get back on track - in comparison, Porsches aren't exactly spartan. But you don't get keyless entry and go in any variant. And for that matter the cars aren't too luxurious either. Yes, they've given a concession to currently acceptable creature comforts but they haven't gone overboard.

You'll find the Audi TT with better finish and Merc's and BMW's too would give you a much better finish and feel on the inside. Of course, the central rev counter and Porsche badge on the steering is more than enough to get your pulse racing. But if you want to a touch screen large enough to watch Shah Rukh Khan movies you could be a bit disappointed.

The F40 with sliding perspex windows, no leather, no carpets, no ice, no glove box was sold for 6.5 crores. No one said, heck I'm paying 6.5 crores and not getting leather seats. One can keep arguing on this point saying that was a Ferrari and this is a BMW 3 series and there is no comparison etc, etc. Most folks who buy 911's know a thing or two about cars and the fact that they accept those interiors indicate that it is not a priority for them as what the car does more than makes up for it.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Do you remember which tires it had? I drove for less than 10 Km on those hankooks and the difference is day and night. Most other Mini owners feel the same. You get used to the suspension very fast and after a while enjoy it. Over here, Mini events were held on regular roads after closing those for the public. In the past 3 months or so, I have used Mini maximum & remains my preferred city car or even for a nearby destination like Jaipur or Agra. It doesn't come with a spare tire so I am afraid to take it longer, need to find a solution.

I don't remember the tyres it had. I was actually so disappointed with the car that I didn't bother. If one changes to softer tyres, that could lead to sidewall issues too.

I had a long drive with the Mini Cooper S from Antwerp to Luxembourg a couple of years ago riding shotgun. The ride wasn't harsh probably because the roads were good. In retrospect I did feel that the car should have been going faster than it did.

In fact given the rather high power figures for a small car I was expecting something that would be manic. In comparison the JCW was pretty tame and just a normally fast car that didn't need the extra skills you need for a car that is extremely fast. Maybe the expectation also contributed to the disappointment.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

..do you find this underwhelming and won't care for interiors

[/ATTACH]

I'm repeating myself here but I don't care much for interiors especially if the car is a disappointment. So, no, those interiors do nothing for me. I wouldn't mind trading these for ordinary interiors in a car that would give driving pleasure on our roads. Incidentally, the JCW I drove had these red accents in the interior.

[prithwi-81]

Nice comparo... I agree with the part that the RS245 is no where worth the 40+L on road but neither is the 330i MSport worth the 60+L, when you can get the totally incredibly awesome 530d for a bit more. And lets be real, if your a person who is willing to spend 60+L on a car, you can easily stretch it a bit more to get something much worth its asking price.

That said, prices are what they are, we should not be paying 100+ for 97/99 Octane fuel but we are and not many people are complaining. Keeping that in mind, we can somehow try to make sense of the RS245 pricing and the 330i MSport Pricing. It is what it is.

So with that in mind, let's consider the benchmark that is now the RS245. VAQ Diff and the gearbox do make a huge difference over the RS230. The engine has a lot of significant changes that are not that apparent to the naked eye. I did a video on my youtube channel highlighting the key engine differences between the two. I can share the link here if you guys want to learn about it. Is is worth the 11L price difference over the RS230? Still the answer remains no, even after the fact that you can't buy a RS230 any more. Interior quality is poor on anything below eye level and I absolutely hate that gearshift console from the 70's. But then as most people love saying these days.. "If not Modi then who?" so if not the RS245 then what at that price point that will full fill your turbo surge and hooning desires while giving you a totally fun filled driving experience? (please no used car discussion, we are talking new cars that you can buy from a showroom today).

The 330i Sport is poorly kitted, its like those F30 320i/d baseline models that you could get earlier. It's got a great motor no doubt, but the gearbox is poor at giving you full access to that power and sadly that box gets carried over the much better specced MSport as well. I've spent a LOT of time puttering around the ZF8 SportShift in my 2017 F30 320i LCI Luxury Line, and no matter how much you want it to be quick, it's just no where close to the speed of the DQ250 let alone the DQ381 DSG. And the minor updates to this box in the G20 over the one in the F30 is still not adequate. I've driven the G30 530d and 530i and the ZF shines in the 530d but making the 530i feel equally worse. So my take is that the ZF needs a bigger motor with a wide powerband to improve the driving experience, as in those motors the torque is easily accessible in max 1 gear below cruising, where as in these turbo petrol 4bangers where in sudden acceleration scenarios you need to go down 2-3 gears from cruise, the ZF falls flat on its face.

Where the ZF shines is on low speed crawling and just general driving around in comfort mode, but that's not why one buys a 330i or a 245. So that's an irrelevant discussion.

The 330i MSport on the other hand is brilliantly kitted, looks like a million bucks, loaded with tech and brilliant interior quality but at a 60L+ price is it worth the 20L over the 245? No. Especially when you pair that motor with the ZF8. Had they given it the DCT Box that is found on the new Cooper S, yes it would be worth a look at 60+L, but the ZF8 is just not good enough for an enthusiastic drive that can challenge the Engine, VAQ, DSG package that the RS245 has to offer.

As for ingear acceleration, we did a benchmark test with my RS245 with less than 500kms on the odo and a friends F30 330i MSport and the RS245 obliterated it. There was no scenario where the F30 could out start or out accelerate the 245 in a rolling scenario. From 20km/h, 40km/h, 60km/h the RS245 just shot ahead every time. Both cars were on Sport/Sport+ mode with the gearboxes Sport. The video is up on my youtube channel for you all to see. The G20 is a bit lighter afaik, and the ZF8 is marginally quicker but the results won't be much different. I will do a standstill drag once my car gets to 1600km on the odo and am able to use the launch control. Both cars were stock, only thing I had done on my car was the removal of the low end torque limiter in the ABS unit called 'rough road optimization' using VCDS. Otherwise its bone stock.

So for an 'entry level' enthusiast perspective we only really have the 245. Yes it's overpriced, yes it's ugly (I don't like the looks of it at all), but the only other reasonable option is the 330i MSport at 20L more and not exactly the performer worth the 20L premium. Add to that the tuning potential of the 245, if you have the money for it, go and pick up a 245, because nothing in the coming 2-3 years is coming into the Indian Auto market that will be this much fun to drive at this price.

Also to add, I'll be picking up a G20 330i MSport around the Dec-Jan time frame to replace the 320i which turns 4 in 2021 and will be sold off. Will do some proper comparo videos on the channel after that, as I just don't know anyone who has picked up a 2019 G20 330i MSport in NCR.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

you will curse yourself for buying such a car. I don't have a long daily commute and if I had to drive on Bangalore ORR everyday, I have a strong feeling, I might have regretted buying the GTI.

If you feel the GTI is bad, you should try out the JCW. You will start appreciating your car a lot more.

I have found the JCW to be far worse than the GTI. It is a car that heightens the small car feel. And that is not a good feeling. It bounces around, doesn't feel fast (unlike a GTI), and you get the feeling that there's very little car for your money. The hype of a "works" car and the resultant expectations that aren't met is yet another factor that lead to disappointment.

In comparison I have actually felt the GTI to be quite comfortable. I even enjoyed driving it within the city.

Originally Posted by prithwi-81

VAQ Diff and the gearbox do make a huge difference over the RS230. The engine has a lot of significant changes that are not that apparent to the naked eye.

I don't know what you mean by "huge difference" because Skoda themselves claim only a 0.2 second difference between the 245 and the 230.

Originally Posted by prithwi-81

As for ingear acceleration, we did a benchmark test with my RS245 with less than 500kms on the odo and a friends F30 330i MSport and the RS245 obliterated it.

Don't even compare your experience with the F30 as a benchmark here. The G30 will run rings around the vRS 245 and obliterate it in the in gear acceleration runs.

[nileshdias]

'F30 handling like a boat' - you are kidding right?

That E90 had the best steering is well known, when it came with hydraulic steering. Later E90's came with electric steering that was no where close.

G20 is a much better car and would be better with an hydraulic steering.

[Ashish0485]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

The G30 will run rings around the vRS 245 and obliterate it in the in gear acceleration runs.

I beg to disagree. I agree with Prithwi's observations. I have driven both and also timed them. Both stock.

Here's what happens when you pit a G20 330i vs vRS245:

1) 0-100 kms: The 330i is almost a second quicker to the 100 - the fwd set-up of the vRS is the culprit here.

2) 0-140 kms: The vRS is faster by half a second

3) 0-200 kms: The vRS is faster by more than 1.5 seconds

4) All the in-gear rolling races: The vRS is faster

Also, till the time you don't have an m-suspension set-up, the normal 330i cornering abilities and high speed manners are inferior to the vRS245.

[Reesnat]

Interesting comparison. As a vRS230 owner for 2 years and having driven the 245 and the 330i a fair deal with a couple friends, here are my thoughts.

No, the 330i isn’t going to run circles around the 245 or even the 230, far from it in fact.

Narain Karthikeyan in his AutoCar track tests in Chennai set a time of 2.06.8 with the vRS230 and 2.06.4 with the 330i, so suffice to say there isn’t anything between them on a track where they are pushed to the limit and any benefits of RWD vs FWD are most noticeable. My guess is that NK could shave off a couple seconds with the vRS245 due to the better gearbox, slightly more power and most importantly that differential. Thereby making the 245 faster than 330i when on the limit.

Now coming to practical applications where we all will be using these the most: The RWD benefits of the 330i aren’t as pronounced or matter in day to day driving. The 330i will definitely be faster to 100 from standstill but in gear acceleration, especially after you cross 100, which matters a lot to me as highway cruisers, the 230/245 will be quicker, as the numbers above have shown.

So, to summarize, the difference between 245 and 330i is 15 lakhs minimum to the MSport version (I’m not counting the sport version here as it’s very poorly kitted and largely for those that want the badge value), is it worth that difference? If you care about interior build quality and a modern, luxurious cabin, yes is. If you are looking purely from a driving perspective and down to performance, the 245 is still way better value, save for the badge (which for me personally doesn’t matter). The RWD vs FWD argument isn’t as relevant today in these cars as it was a decade ago.

Finally the 245 is a much more significant update than meets the eye on first glance. The diff, gearbox and chassis and suspension tweaks make for a MUCH sharper handling car than the 230. Also the more stronger engine and gearbox and diff is probably a better platform to add significant amount of power in the future.

Having said all of the above, I do agree that the 245 could have been priced better, but even at this price there is a strong argument to be made for it against the competition.

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

Narain Karthikeyan in his AutoCar track tests in Chennai set a time of 2.06.8 with the vRS230 and 2.06.4 with the 330i, so suffice to say there isn’t anything between them on a track where they are pushed to the limit and any benefits of RWD vs FWD are most nwoticeable.

Extending that line of argument, the modded VW Ameo with 205 Bhp would be faster than the M5 with 600 Bhp and the RS5 with 450 BHP.

The Ameo is a whole 2 seconds faster than the MS and 3 seconds faster than the RS5 on the track which just goes to show that real life scenarios can never be replicated on a track and what is good on a track could be left for dead in the real world.

Another case in point - the JM Motorsport car is faster than the Porsche GT3 RS 991.2 underling again that track timings have very little to do with how cars fare in the real world.

To further expand on the 330i, in the words of NK the ESP of the 330i kept kicking in which did not allow it to carry high speeds. Even with this disadvantage the 330i is nearly as fast as the vRS on the track. In real life where ESP's don't need to kick in so often the 330i would leave the vRS behind.

The reason the vRS is faster on the track is also because of what I've mentioned in the review - it has less body roll on corners allowing more traction hence giving it a better exit speed and hence better in gear acceleration and top speed. Even with the sports tuned suspension (as against a softer suspension of the 330i) the vRS manages to be just a fraction of a second faster than the 330i.

The 330i is also more stable than the vRS at very high speeds and bad roads where the low profile tyres of the vRS makes the car skittish.

All in, the 330i is faster, stable and more comfortable making it a more practical and faster car in the real world.

Just wish BMW could also make the car look good. - the more I see it especially in that drab grey colour the more ugly and ungainly it seems to become whereas the vRS seems to be looking sharper and better as the days go by. But if one is in it for the pleasure of the drive and experience the 330i, you just couldn't care how it looks.

(Sorry for the delayed response - just saw your post.)

[Reesnat]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Extending that line of argument, the modded VW Ameo with 205 Bhp would be faster than the M5 with 600 Bhp and the RS5 with 450 BHP.

The Ameo is a whole 2 seconds faster than the MS and 3 seconds faster than the RS5 on the track which just goes to show that real life scenarios can never be replicated on a track and what is good on a track could be left for dead in the real world.

Another case in point - the JM Motorsport car is faster than the Porsche GT3 RS 991.2 underling again that track timings have very little to do with how cars fare in the real world.

To further expand on the 330i, in the words of NK the ESP of the 330i kept kicking in which did not allow it to carry high speeds. Even with this disadvantage the 330i is nearly as fast as the vRS on the track. In real life where ESP's don't need to kick in so often the 330i would leave the vRS behind.

The reason the vRS is faster on the track is also because of what I've mentioned in the review - it has less body roll on corners allowing more traction hence giving it a better exit speed and hence better in gear acceleration and top speed. Even with the sports tuned suspension (as against a softer suspension of the 330i) the vRS manages to be just a fraction of a second faster than the 330i.

The 330i is also more stable than the vRS at very high speeds and bad roads where the low profile tyres of the vRS makes the car skittish.

All in, the 330i is faster, stable and more comfortable making it a more practical and faster car in the real world.

Just wish BMW could also make the car look good. - the more I see it especially in that drab grey colour the more ugly and ungainly it seems to become whereas the vRS seems to be looking sharper and better as the days go by. But if one is in it for the pleasure of the drive and experience the 330i, you just couldn't care how it looks.

(Sorry for the delayed response - just saw your post.)

Whoa, a bit surprised by your reply. Your preference is loud and clear and that is totally fine! I really didn't mean to start a debate on subjective preferences, my point was merely factual.

I own a RWD BMW and the vRS and have driven them plenty on road and track to know what they are about. But factually, I (and the results on hand) disagree with you that the 330i is faster in the real world. Infact, the only acceleration advantage the 330i has is in 0-100 thanks to RWD, but in the real world, are we dragging at every stoplight? Its rolling acceleration that matters in the real world, and there the vRS will more than keep up.

You comparing a race built car (which cannot be used on street) vs a streetcar as stock from showroom is pointless in this regard, we need to keep it apples to apples.

Again, sorry if I stepped/hijacked your thread, all in good intention as passionate car enthusiasts!

One thing is for sure, no matter which car you pick of the two, you cannot go wrong, they are both wonderful cars to drive and own!

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

my point was merely factual

True, and the reason I've given a response to each of the facts indicating:

1. Why the vRS being faster on the track doesn't make it faster on the road - the basic premise for your conclusion.
2. Why the in gear acceleration figures from the track you've relied on to arrive at your conclusion do not indicate real world timings.
3. NK's comments that the 330i should actually be faster on the road than it is on the track.
4. Real world experiences of the driving the 245 - skittish nature on bad roads compared to the 330i.

The vRS 230 is better than the F30 but with the 330i the game has moved on. Believe in performance of a car more than its brand.

Not getting into other justifications here - price / reliability/ service quality/ obsolescence etc, just the performance.

[d3mon]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

... difference between 245 and 330i is 15 lakhs minimum to the MSport version (I’m not counting the sport version here as it’s very poorly kitted and largely for those that want the badge value)

Thank you for your comparo!

Guess the FWD vs RWD debate will be never finished, but I don't think many people will agree with the statement that the Sport version is only for badge value.

Pray tell me, which other 250BHP RWD car can one buy for that money? It's not like a Kia Stinger or a Mazda Miata or a GT-86 is available in our country. If those were available, then your argument would have some legs to stand on, but in the current state of the market, there are tons of people who are buying the 3 series for the Fun to drive RWD sedan factor, not for the snob value

[Reesnat]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

1. Why the vRS being faster on the track doesn't make it faster on the road - the basic premise for your conclusion.
2. Why the in gear acceleration figures from the track you've relied on to arrive at your conclusion do not indicate real world timings.

The NK reference was merely an add-on to what real-world experiences and in-gear times other members (posted above) have experienced and timed. Don't know how much more real worled it gets than that.

Originally Posted by d3mon

Thank you for your comparo!

Guess the FWD vs RWD debate will be never finished, but I don't think many people will agree with the statement that the Sport version is only for badge value.

Pray tell me, which other 250BHP RWD car can one buy for that money? It's not like a Kia Stinger or a Mazda Miata or a GT-86 is available in our country. If those were available, then your argument would have some legs to stand on, but in the current state of the market, there are tons of people who are buying the 3 series for the Fun to drive RWD sedan factor, not for the snob value

I agree and can see your point of view. If you want a RWD sports car, no options left. If you are open to a FWD car which is highly capable, then the 245 has a case. My personal grouse with the Sport version is barring the powertrain, its far too last gen. BUT, I do agree that for some, its not a factor and all they want is the BMW driving experience, that the 330i will deliver, no arguments.

As I said in my earlier post, you could argue both sides and could be right on both

[AMG Power]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

The NK reference was merely an add-on to what real-world experiences and in-gear times other members (posted above) have experienced and timed. Don't know how much more real worled it gets than that.

Surely you aren't serious??

Looks like the discussion isn't going as it should so let's leave it at that.

[prithwi-81]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF_K3-Doeqw

F30 330i with cat back vs stock RS245. The G20 has a nearly identical drivetrain and is a bit heavier.. so do the math.