[awini]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

go to mercedes-benz India with this case and see what they can do to help you out.

what makes you think mercedes are any better? my 2005 C200k with just about 18000 kms on the clock has given me more trouble than my 2002 honda city with nearly 60000 km on the clock. the honda hasnt let me down even once, whereas the merc has had work done on the A/C, the starter bendix failed,which took a month to fix!! because the part had to come from germany. and recently, i noticed hydraulic fluid on the floor, so had to get a gearbox kit replaced for over 20,000 rupees. and this on a car which has NEVER been driven hard, i normally drive with the speed limiter set at 60kph.

[csentil]

How unfortunate. A Beemer or Merc is what most Indians would aspire to own. Apart from all its technical wizardry and all that, it also shows to the world, that you have arrived !! :-)

Whether you pay 1 lakh or 30 lakhs you want satisfaction guaranteed on your car. Sadly in India its not the case with some dealers/manufacturers.

It never surprises me when even in Europe, in the top 10 cars in terms of reliability/dependability/customer satisfaction the Japs come out tops.

[shatrughna]

Such a sad story. Its so disheartening to read this. Earlier, I read about an Alto , then Santro, then BMW and now Merc too. Tatas and Mahindras well - there are epics written on their quality so what are we left with Honda and GMs!?
Hope BMW and car makers of cars on this side of Rs. 3 millions, do realise the blood and sweat that goes into earning those figures and above all the dreams that may go kaput with their lackadaisical approach towards the cars that they sell.
for them its a matter of six sigma( 6 in a billion error) , but imagine the plight of those six guys in a billion who get the defective machinery.
Pleading the QC dept. and those who do PDI at dealers, kindly, value each family's dream when they go to pick up their dream wheels , some day you may see your own dreams come true.

[thebagchi]

Cars like body and suspension electronics. Along with other Electronics.
there are sensors connected to individual components and these data is spent over CAN Bus (based on Control Area Network) to the central ECU.
The Central ECU has a RTOS called OSEK.
And depending upon the data received the corresponding Module is communicated.

Few of the Cars have as much as 75 Independent ECU.
Fitting Xenon may hamper the electricals unless its taken care by the Manufacturer.

Higher voltage requirements of Xenon may affect the CAR electrical if the CAR electrical is not designed to accommodate them.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by nick320d

It all started by us buying a new BMW 320d form BIRD AUTOMOTIVE, Gurgaon, Haryana car for 2990000 INR plus taxes and the invoice states year of manufacturing as April 2007 where as the price of this car brand new today is 2940000 INR and we found out that the year of mfr of our car is oct-2006.

a. How did you identify the year manufacture?
b. How long after purchase did you find this?
c. What was the odo reading of the car at time of delivery?

Well overlooking this issue let me go further to say that 2 months after the purchase front suspension assy came off the body resulting in the front left wheel detaching from the car. This could have resulted in a fatal crash.

a. What was the odo reading at this stage? Did not the steering / handling give any warning about the impending disaster??
b. what was the last time (odo reading) when you did something with the tyres? (eg check air, rotate tyres, fix punctures -- on tubeless tyres!!)

Well after the dealer refused to tow the vehicle we somehow managed to get it into the dealer. Our driver recived minor injuries.

You cannot "somehow" get the vehicle to the workshop. You either tow it, or put into a truck and transport it. Which of these did you do?

How did your driver get injured? During the transportation of the disabled/damaged car? or when the wheels came off? What other damage was caused to the car? Was there a non-fatal crash? If there was a crash, was the matter immediately reported to the insurance co? Was a survey done if there was a crash?

After initial blaming game the car was inspected by some british guy heading BMW in gurgaon. After one of their demo vehicle faced the same problem with both front and rear suspension they decided to replace the complete front end. The front left tyre was also gone due to the accident yet they refused to replace asking us to buy the tyre for Rs 22000 each. We refused to pay and bought Yokohama tyres for 16000 for set of 4 tyres (same profile).

Why should you replace the whole set when only one is damaged? You could easily have got a single piece and used and spare in place of the damaged tyre.

Just curious. How did you know that their demo car faced the same problem?

Subsiquently BMW decided to counter blame us to save their reputation and said we had changed the front head lights from regular to xenon (aftermarket).And now cancelled the warranty because we have changed the tyres on the car.

That is ridiculous. Changing headlamps has nothing to do with wheels. When and how was the cancellation of the warranty communicated to you?

Thereafter this incident the A/C compressor failed and the front passanger electric seat stopped.

Airbag malfunction started resulting in total breakdown of the car. We decided to take the car through our insurance company and oddly enough they decided to bud inn and told them not to replace any part as there is a dispute.

a. Which insurance company?? Why should they intervent here? What was your logic in approaching them?
b. Pardon my ignorance, can you elaborate about car "breakdown" part and the airbag is malfunctioning thing? Do you regularly use the airbags so as to cause a problem if they do not function properly?

This british guy heading BMW India in gurgaon thinks of Indians as puppets and thinks they can still dictate us as they please. I am so so fuerious with guy and the tone he took as if i had stolen this vehicle from them. Incidently many people started calling BIRD AUTOMOTIVE in gurgaon, haryana to know the story and they are told that the suspension malfunction happened because we changed the tyres. The car comes with Bridgestone 225/50 R16 RFT and we replaced them with the exact same profile but Yokohama due to the reason mentioned above.

The reason they give for cancelling warranty is that we have put in Xenon headlamps.

I think you said earlier that the warranty was cancelled for changing the tyres, no?

Spending close to 93000 US$ on a car and treated like **** can only happen in India. The car is now standing at Deauch Moter in New Delhi and i have decided to abandon the car, as it is worthless piece of ****.

Again, my curiousity gets better of me. When, and how does "Deauch Moter" come into the picture? Are they BMW dealers?

[aah78]

Originally Posted by nick320d

Our driver recived minor injuries.After initial blaming game the car was inspected by some british guy heading BMW in gurgaon.

If you mean Peter Kronschnabl - (the name sounds very much German) I'm not sure the President of BMW India would personally come to inspect a car.

Originally Posted by nick320d

The front left tyre was also gone due to the accident yet they refused to replace asking us to buy the tyre for Rs 22000 each. We refused to pay and bought Yokohama tyres for 16000 for set of 4 tyres (same profile).

BMW will not replace tyres / wheels (unless covered under special warranty). If the accident happened while you had the vehicle, then they really aren't responsible for it.
RunFlat tyres are expensive. The Yokohama's - are they RunFlats? What do you plan to do in case of a puncture?

Originally Posted by nick320d

Subsiquently BMW decided to counter blame us to save their reputation and said we had changed the front head lights from regular to xenon (aftermarket).
.
.
.
The reason they give for cancelling warranty is that we have put in Xenon headlamps. Spending close to 93000 US$ on a car and treated like **** can only happen in India. The car is now standing at Deauch Moter in New Delhi and i have decided to abandon the car, as it is worthless piece of ****.

Did you put in aftermarket xenons?
If there are so many issues, wouldn't going to court be a better option than giving up, admitting defeat and abandoning the car?

Originally Posted by nick320d

Incidently many people started calling BIRD AUTOMOTIVE in gurgaon, haryana to know the story and they are told that the suspension malfunction happened because we changed the tyres.

Who're these people? How'd they get hold of your story?
In case you get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to defend any BMW India dealer here, but you posted your message 3 days ago, and haven't replied to any of the previous posts.

Originally Posted by devarshi84

go to mercedes-benz India with this case and see what they can do to help you out.

You are kidding, right?

[GTO]

Its shocking to hear that the suspension faultered on a brand new BMW, that too to the point of dislocating the wheel from the car. No one to point a finger at but BMW. You have taken this surprisingly well....if it was me, heads would have been rolling by now.

Subsiquently BMW decided to counter blame us to save their reputation and said we had changed the front head lights from regular to xenon (aftermarket).And now cancelled the warranty

Fitting xenons to such a complicated piece of machinery will surely disable your warranty; not just with BMW but with any other premium car manufacturer. The electronics of these cars are just to complex, and inter-related, that an after-market fitment can lead to disastrous results.

1. Bird Automotive sold me the car in April, 2007 and the invoice said date of manufacturing April, 2007 and so does my registration. Yet the car was manufactured in Oct of 2006.

If the invoice does read as April 2007, then you can easily get a full refund from the consumer court. But how did you come to know that the car is an Oct 2006 build? BMW wasnt even in India at the time. Can you post a picture of the manufacturing badge?

If BMW can behave like this - there HAS to be a reason. They have too much at stake (reputation) to spoil their party in the very first year of their operations here.

I wouldnt give anyone the benefit of doubt, only because of their perceived reputation. My experience with Mercedes taught me a lot about the games played by automobile manufacturers.

[vasudeva]

No one has a spotless reputation in any product, let alone a complicated product such as a car. More electronics for German makers has invariably meant more problems, high repair costs, and a sullied rep. Knowing some cars from Germany and Europe, it may not be below them to import `rejects or seconds' to India and other countries (Astra and Corsa being shining examples) with weak product quality laws, and lower levels of consumer activism.

[nick320d]

in ref to
The CAN protocol is developed by Robert Bosch GmbH and is used in all vehicles "late euro III and IV" with a Bosch ECM.
The use of CAN in most of European passenger cars and the decision by truck and off-road vehicle manufacturers for CAN led to the availability of CAN chips for more than 10 years. Other high volume markets, like domestic appliances and industrial control, also increase the CAN sales figures and guarantee the availability for the future. Up to spring 1997 there have been more than 50 million CAN nodes installed.

Rather then a stand alone PC as we say in layman's language, this consists of nodes "workstations" connected to a server (computer). Nodes are connectors, injectors, acctuators, sensors etc, etc... all controled at the same time by the command of your car's ECU or ECM "Engine control module or unit" transmitting 32 bits data on it's bus lines. I/O port is the OBD II socket under the driver side hood release lever.
Cars with CAN in india
1. Skoda Octavia, superb, Laura
2. Tata safari , indica
3. MBZ
4. Toyota almost all modles (2006 and up)
5. Honda all modles (2005 and up)
list goes on. well almost all diesel units with Bosch electronica and VGT turbo) Variable Geomatric turbine , nothing fancy in it either but has vanes incorperated in the turbine part of the turvo that is vaccume accutated
anyone interested to see the pictures can go to link
AutoZine Technical School - Engine

As for my car, i have written to almost everyone at BMW and no response as yet. One more thing. Just to make it clear the suspension incident happened before the tyre change. Nothing was touched on the car. I bought this car BRAND NEW from BIRD AUTOMOTIVE LTD, GURGAON, HARYANA as per my original invoice. Date of manufacturing is not listed on the car but inscribed within the computer system. Anyone with a little knowledge can find out complete details of manufacturing data i.e date, time, plant, CAN version etc etc, just press reset button on the dash gauge for 10 second and bingo. you can go up and down the with the toggle switch on the left wiper lever. This is killing BMW INDIA as i own a accutation and automotive electronic with solenoid based vaccum accutation research and development. We are based out of Los Angeles, USA. So they know that I know.
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] Solenoid[/SIZE][/FONT]
aeronautical engineer

[kbk_75]

Backseat and Aah, good questions...

Nick, let me start by sympathising with you and telling you that I, along with all the other members on this forum, would be very interested in knowing all the facts of your case. Nobody likes to spend their hard-earned money on something only to see it go down the tubes because of poor manufacturing / QC / PDI. Nobody likes to be treated badly by large corporations either, so your story is an important one.

Like the others before me, I have some questions too, which perhaps you should answer. If you've come to this forum to get the support of the enthusiast community, the least you can do is interact with us, not just tell your story and then keep mum.

You mentioned that you bought the car for 29,90,000 + taxes. When was this? Did you check with any other dealer at the time of purchase what the going rate for a new car was?

What modifications / changes did you make to your car between the time you bought it and your suspension problem occurred? This is an important point.

I know it's pointless asking this, but did you / your driver ever damage the car's suspension in any way by hitting a bad ditch / pot-hole / bump etc? Is it possible your driver may have done this without your knowledge?

What were you doing when the damage took place? What speed were you driving at? How EXACTLY did it occur? Who was driving your car? How do you know that the suspension assembly came off resulting in your wheel detaching and not the other way around? Could it be that your wheel was insecurely fastened and that the wheel came off the hub, and that the ensuing impact (did your car hit something?) damaged your car's suspension?

Why did the dealer refuse to help you get your car back to them? This sounds very strange to me. Surely there is more to this than you are letting-on? I feel that unless there is some bad blood between your dealer and you, the dealer should have definitely assisted you in getting your car to them.

How did you eventually get the car to the dealership? Did you put your complaint / story in writing to them? This is an important point.

So they replaced your suspension. Was this done under warranty? Did you have to pay anything? Was it covered by insurance?

You then chose not to replace the damaged run-flat tyre. Did you buy one Yokohama or a complete set? At what cost? From who?

Then you had a string of electrical problems. Who installed your xenon lights? When? What make are they? You mentioned that the air bag malfunction resulted in a complete break-down of your car. Could you elaborate on this please?

You mentioned that BMW said the suspension damage was caused by you changing your tyres. Were your OE tyres changed before the damage or after? This is important.

If you are being completely honest about what has happened to you, and if you have things in writing, then it seems to me that you have a good case for yourself and you should approach the consumer courts. If, on the other hand, you have made several unauthorised modifications to your car, and you don't have proper paper work detailing the history of your case, then you are in a much weaker position.

If you feel so strongly about how things have unfolded, how come you have abandoned your car? Surely you would like to pursue this matter to its logical conclusion? By giving-up it appears that you are not divulging the entire facts, or, at very least, that you don't care about what happened to your 30+ lakh rupees.

On a personal level, I would advise against you name-calling and using political and historic rhetoric as the motive for BMW to treat you unjustly. Nobody will buy this and it only weakens your image in others' eyes. Rest assured there is no connection between BMW's employees' nationality and the way in which you have been treated.

I suggest you go about this in a level-headed and professional manner for your own good, and not just go about posting your story on various on-line fora, especially if you have no interest in fighting your case for yourself.

I wish you luck. May justice prevail.

[nick320d]

Originally Posted by kbk_75

Backseat and Aah, good questions...
You mentioned that you bought the car for 29,90,000 + taxes. When was this? Did you check with any other dealer at the time of purchase what the going rate for a new car was?

What modifications / changes did you make to your car between the time you bought it and your suspension problem occurred? This is an important point.
I wish you luck. May justice prevail.

First of all as to name calling, it is very relevant to say that "British" people in general are the most raciest people and this is from experience. I am born and raised in the US and my wife is Danish. Our conclusion came after the head of sales and service in Gurgaon took this whole incident and very calmly reversed it and I must say it is a great tactic to play in a market like India where the legal system could take years and by the time it does go to court, BMW would have already established itself in India. Not to mention the Indian Judicial system is based on "common English law" ref:English law[/FONT]

The only difference in India is that they never put in the effort to fully amend according to it's basic country structure of "HUF" Hindu undivided family. My comments on the British dude came after banging my head against the wall for 2 months being treated like a third class citizen in a country where my ancestors and roots belong. The first thing he asked me was "Where are you from? You don't sound Indian". After getting his name and phone number, we had expected a very professional service unlike the dealership. Well first my wife called him and explained him the complete situation and he promised to call back after 30 mins that turned into 1 week. Finally she got really mad as i was out of the country, he said let me go to the dealership and sort this out. So by the time he came back with an answer, I was back. She gave him my number and he called me. After the initial conversation as mentioned above he said let me cut to the chase. I have a good news and a bad news. Good news is that we have located the parts needed to change the front suspension in Chennai and we have already ordered them. The bad news is that it might take 6-7 days for them to get here as they are heavy. He said that we agree that there is a fault with the front suspension as the dealer vehicle had the same problem but we have pinned down the exact cause. It is the logistics of this lot. Meaning the way these vehicles were tied down to the truck caused the chassis mount to cut the bearing and therefore it is not a manufacturing defect. Anyhow, we would change the complete front end "left and right" and it would be covered under the warranty. This was the first and the last conversation i had with him as he refused to take my calls. Anyhow, let me answer your questions by pointers

1. After my initial purchase in April 2007, i was told by a mutual friend that works in BMW that the price of all the Indian assembled units is Rs 2940000.00 yet the price charged to me was for a "CBU" complete built-up unit, meaning made in Germany and imported by BMW. My car is assy in INDIA. After inquiring from Deutsche motoren, new delhi, that had 2 cars and both were "CBU" but one car assy in INDIA was on it's way within a week and priced at 2940000

.2. As far as the modifications are concerned, we had none. The car was the same as it came from the dealer. I had not damage anything on the vehicle upon the failure of the front suspension. It has 2500kms on it and it happened 2 months after the purchase. Secondly, it becomes irrelevant as they agreed to the fault blaming the “logistics” as it happened to the dealer’s car as well.

3. I was driving the vehicle in gurgaon and I was at 40 Km/h . I slowed down to 20Km/h as I felt a jolt and car started to pull to the left as if the tire had busted. Some people started pointing and simultaneously I heard a screeching sound and felt as if it fell into a ditch. I got out of the car and saw the front left wheel was bent 90 degree inwards making it almost under the car. Wheel was never detached from the car. The front strut assy detached from the front suspension mount making the spring fly 100 ft in the air, dislocating the wheel strut assy

4. Bad blood, of course as I had yelled about the date of manufacturing and the price of the car with the dealership back and forth. I was furious with the management and they were trying to find a way to get out of that situation. BMW replaced both front left and right complete suspension without a charge but refused to change the tire saying it is not covered under warranty I changed Yokohama from their dealer in New Delhi. Reason to change all 4 was that as per BMW international guidelines all 4 tires should be the same tread and make

5.Well the car was parked in the middle of nowhere and it was a Sunday. After calling their hotline and them refusing to acknowledge the problem, 2 hours later their service manager Mr. Patel called and said that they have no way to tow the vehicle and he does not have the permission from his manager to get it to them. I called few people from my company and we managed to get the spring and the tire up into the hole of the mount so that it could be towed. That took around 4 hours and the took the car to the dealer workshop and they refused to take it in saying that they are closed Monday we called and the service manager Patel out right refuse to acknowledge that anyone ever called. I was really really mad as I confronted him. This is where the story took a disturbing bend. He took the car in and took the pictures and said that we had fixed the car at an unauthorized dealer. And from there it all starts. We had everything on paper and also sent it to BMW AG Germany

6. Xenon lamps were installed by kyshup motors new delhi and this is not the first time we have installed xenon’s. The lamps and ballast are of Bosch AG and it is that same unit that comes in the BMW U.K models. After they made this as a big issue, we reinstalled the original lights through Bird Automotive and paid them Rs 11000.00 as they ran the diagnostics as well. This was the only part ever changed in that car till date. Tires we changed have the exact same profile and are fitted on the original BMW rims that came with the car, after they refused to change the one busted tire.

Nick

[kuttapan]

Hi Nick, I believe you have the money to hire high profile lawyer and sue BMW to hell and further. Why have you not done this yet?

I believe you have to file a case within a certain period of such an incident happening, so please do not delay the legal proceedings at your end.

[kbk_75]

Well, Nick, having gone through your thread, I have a few things to say.

First, your personal opinion on different people's nationality and racist tendencies is irrelevant. We are here to discuss your car, not people's racism. I can understand that you feel aggrieved by this whole situation, but let's stick to the facts. Feelings only cloud rational thought.

Second, if you spent almost as much on a whole set of new non-runflat tyres, why didn't you just get one new runflat instead? As things stand you don't have a spare tyre, and without runflats, you are taking a chance at being severely inconvenienced if you do have a puncture (it's the same with my M3, which is why I feel that perhaps you'd have been better served with a new runflat).

Lastly, I feel that perhaps you should have approached this entire matter by putting things on the record, in writing. It would have greatly strengthened your position vis-a-vis the law and also would have shown BMW that they were dealing with someone who was being professional with them. This should serve as a lesson to all on this forum. Nothing that has serious consequences and implications should ever be discussed verbally, always put things on the record. That way nobody can say "He didn't tell us" or "That was not what we meant". Also, when we are upset about things we tend to say things that are impolite, unprofessional and unnecessary. By writing a strict letter and stating the facts, you keep your feelings out of it, and come across as being more professional.

At any rate, I will end by saying that if you have the courage of your conviction, take this matter to the consumer court. Only you stand to lose by letting the matter go. On the other hand you stand to gain if the law agrees that you have been wronged and awards you some compensation. Once again, by complaining about our legal system and the legacy of British rule, you digress from what it important...get yourself a good lawyer and get yourself compensated. There's no point in complaining if you won't fight for your dues.

I wish you all the best, may justice prevail.

[raul]

Hey, BMW can't just void warranty, after all this issue starts with the suspension problem that they have admitted is a defect from their side, they have to take responsibility. The other issues seems to be devised to escape accountability and give Nick the run around.

I for one do not understand why companies behave like, in the long run its so much cheaper and better for your reputation to resolve it with a dissatisfied customer. Believe me in the end you will have to. It appears you have run in to an ego issue with the local BMW guys, whatever it is its unprofessional.

They should have even replaced the tyres no questions asked at their cost as the accident happened because of a deficiency on their end. Forget that, this could seriously jeopardize your safety and life, its just luck that nothing happened. If this was US they would get sued for millions. And yet you were reasonable and got the tyres replaced at your cost. For them to turn around and void warranty now is outrageous. On the contrary they should go out of their way to make you happy and bury this issue.

Believe me companies like BMW are very concerned about their reputation build over decades, especially on safety. If this happens to any of us I have no doubt we will blow our top. If a car company is jeopardizing my safety and I see a wheel coming off when I am traveling I would not take it so easy. Forget the car, that impacts my life. There would be hell to pay. Its just so annoying when as a customer these guys wrong you and then behave in an arrogant manner evading responsibility shamelessly and looking for faults on your end just to get off the hook.

Nick, this works sometimes. Get in touch with BMW India's PR agency and BMW PR/Corporate Communications India person asap, point them to this forum and the threads that discuss your issue. This sort of bad press is directly their responsibility and they can and will bypass the local British head if he is not reasonable with their bosses in HQ to resolve this. Contact all the auto journalists in the various auto magazines and TV shows. Make some noise. They will have to resolve the issue if its their fault.

[Bomi]

if the owners manual clearly states that any modification of the car will void the warranty, then the legal route is not going to help. Perhaps BMW knows this and hence is playing hardball? An option would be to personally meet the local head and seek a compromise - you pay for some of the electrical damage and BMW throws in some goodwill replacements?