[shivir]

Cesc is on fire today! Great game last night mate! So a goal to take back to Camp Nou!

And to add to the point on trouble free cars, despite the odd thread bashing the Fabia into oblivion on the forum - Fabia has developed quite a reputation. I was going through this months issue of Whatcar and they rated it very high on reliability - and even the older versions and recommend it as a great buy - even used.

[Cesc]

Of course I am. Boy did we give Barca a tatse of their own medicine in the last 15 mins of the game. Great game overall. Realistically Barca are still favourites to progress but in Arsene Wenger's own words 'We now know we can beat them. Last year we did not know that'. Second leg will be a treat to watch if both teams stick to their principles of playing football.

On Fabia and Octy - there are enough good stories on these two cars on Briskoda (a Skoda forum). Check that forum out as well.

[pajero4me]

Now that i've been going ga ga about my Black beauty for this long,I wanted to take a break and do some impartial analysis, Not that i'm already feeling bored or that I regret my decision, all what i'm trying to do is to open up a debate,tryin to get answer to a question that has been lingering in my mind for a loooooong time.

We all agree that the new Skoda fabia is true Value For Money...Lets try to find out for whom is it VFM? SKODA or the Buyer.

Here is comprehensive list of Features that are missing in the new elegance model vis-a-vis the old elegance model.(Please feel free to add, if I have missed any )

Comprehensive List of Omissions (Old elegance Model to New Elegance Model).
Exterior:
1. Projector Head Lamps
2. Rear Defogger
3. Rear Washer Wiper
4. Rear Parking Sensors.
5. Electrically adjustable OVRM.
6. Heating with timer in external OVRM.
7. Tyres 185/60 downgraded (?) to 175/70 (In TDI model. 1.6 still has 185/60)

Interior:
8. Electro Hydraulic Power steering downgraded to pure electric. (Taken from Polo)
9. Seat Belt Pre tensioners.
10. Third 3 point seat belt on Rear seat (Its two point now)
11. Passenger seat height adjust.
12. Cooled Glove Box.
13. Top part of dashboard lid Lock/Latch (New one does not have a Lock/Latch)
14. Centre Arm Rest with storage.
15. Split folding rear seats
16. ISOFIX seat preparations on rear seats for Child seats.
17. High quality Fabric Floor mat with Fabia Monogram.
18. Skoda Dance Music system downgraded (?) to Skoda Beat Music system.

Now lets look at the price difference between both.(I’m taking the TDi elegance model for reference)

Ex showroom price (Old 1.4 tdi) - 7,89,030
Ex showroom price (New1.2 tdi CR) - 6,72,805
Price difference - 1,16,225

So here is the million dollar question. Does the price difference justify all the features that have been mercilessly stripped off?
(Looks like Skoda had done some clever tactics here, May be the Big man and his baseball bat has job to do in Aurangabad plant )

[2cents]

Originally Posted by pajero4me

Now lets look at the price difference between both.(I’m taking the TDi elegance model for reference)
Attachment 504021
Ex showroom price (Old 1.4 tdi) - 7,89,030
Ex showroom price (New1.2 tdi CR) - 6,72,805
Price difference - 1,16,225

So here is the million dollar question. Does the price difference justify all the features that have been mercilessly stripped off?
(Looks like Skoda had done some clever tactics here, May be the Big man and his baseball bat has job to do in Aurangabad plant )

The updates in the new Fabia was done more by their marketing team, than their production team. All they did was to rename the earlier Ambiente' as Elegance, etc. The earlier Elegance variant doesn't exist anymore. The present Elegance version is indeed the earlier Ambiente' stripped down - pretensioners, electric heated ORVM, cooled glove box... (ouch!! I didn't mean to hurt).

But do check your tyres, it is reported here (and in the models i've seen at the showroom) that elegance(1.2 crdi, 1.2 htp and 1.6) indeed gets 185/60, although the brochure says otherwise. I also think you dont get the tinted glass.

The price of the earlier versions you have quoted does not include the 50-60k discount that was on for some time. My BS3 1.2htp cost me 5.65L(ex-showroom) in June after discounts, the new version is 5.66L (no discounts). Perhaps the newer engine makes up for the difference. Or does it?!

PS: the new price list you've posted says 'w.e.f 1-4-2010'. can you tell us when did you get that copy!

[Cesc]

Just one question - would you, as a buyer, have bought the old Elegance diesel at that price? With the road tax the difference works out close to 1.3L - no small amount for a hatch.

IMO what Skoda is trying to do is compete on an even field with other hatches. The competition does not offer a vast majority of the features you have enumerated in their top models. Some features in your list (like heated OVRMs, middle three point seat belt) are next to useless - I have those on my L&K and have never used them in almost 6 years of ownership. Some others which would be good to have (like rear parking sensors and a good music system) you can get from outside for far cheaper. Yet others nice ones like cooled glovebox and height adjust are just lost - one can't do anything about it.

All in all I think it was the right move by Skoda. You can't have your hatch priced at 30-40% premium to competition and still hope to garner market share. What the company has tried to do is close that gap. Agreed we lost a lot of goodies but IMO for a hatch buyer the price difference generated is greater than the pinch of missing goodies.

[pajero4me]

Originally Posted by 2cents

But do check your tyres, it is reported here (and in the models i've seen at the showroom) that elegance (1.2 crdi, 1.2 htp and 1.6) indeed gets 185/60, although the brochure says otherwise. I also think you dont get the tinted glass. !

May be the initial display models had these tyres.But 100% sure that TDi models come with 175/70.(Sales rep said that it is to offset the 100 odd kilos of extra weight that the Tdi has and still maintain the Ground clearance).New model indeed has tinted glasses, very light tint though.

Originally Posted by 2cents

The price of the earlier versions you have quoted does not include the 50-60k discount that was on for some time. My BS3 1.2htp cost me 5.65L(ex-showroom) in June after discounts, the new version is 5.66L (no discounts). Perhaps the newer engine makes up for the difference. Or does it?!

Hmm that’s only solace, newer engine(BS4) is supposed to be more reliable and fuel efficient. Also parts cost is supposed to be lower as it has sales volume with Polo too using it.I have deliberately not accounted for discounts as i wanted to have a fair comparison. More over discount was only for a short period in order to clear the inventory. right?

Originally Posted by 2cents

PS: the new price list you've posted says 'w.e.f 1-4-2010'. can you tell us when did you get that copy!

The price list photograph actually contains two pricelists. The top one was of the older Fabia (with out discounts, I got it during sep - oct timeframe 2010 when i was considering the old fabia).The lower portion is of New Fabia.('w.e.f 1-4-2010' for the new list could be a typo )

[shivir]

Originally Posted by Cesc

Just one question - would you, as a buyer, have bought the old Elegance diesel at that price? With the road tax the difference works out close to 1.3L - no small amount for a hatch.

IMO what Skoda is trying to do is compete on an even field with other hatches. The competition does not offer a vast majority of the features you have enumerated in their top models. Some features in your list (like heated OVRMs, middle three point seat belt) are next to useless - I have those on my L&K and have never used them in almost 6 years of ownership. Some others which would be good to have (like rear parking sensors and a good music system) you can get from outside for far cheaper. Yet others nice ones like cooled glovebox and height adjust are just lost - one can't do anything about it.

All in all I think it was the right move by Skoda. You can't have your hatch priced at 30-40% premium to competition and still hope to garner market share. What the company has tried to do is close that gap. Agreed we lost a lot of goodies but IMO for a hatch buyer the price difference generated is greater than the pinch of missing goodies.

In agreement with Cesc - Most of the feature omitted are feature that are hard to come by even on some luxury sedans - yes a few simple things have been cut out too. But with the build and ride quality of the cars they have kept the money on the right things.

The new prices have helped Skoda with sales immensely for the Fabia and the 51% growth of Skoda sales last month was primarily down to the Fabia starting to sell so obviously they have got it strategically correct. To the price sensitive hatch segment in India - and complicated - it has been a welcome move. But what I really think they got right was skimping on the glam features and not the safety or driving experience features. It still is built like a tank and is an extremely safe car to drive. While I am sure this debate will rage on, I genuinely think that Skoda India has priced it effectively. I mean think about this for a moment the top end i20 (Auto) is close to 9 Lacs on road - that just has to be the most absurd pricing for a hatch! Also, incidentally Swift did its volumes on the VXi & LXi segment, which clearly shows we are an extremely price sensitive market!

@ Pajero4me - Just let me know when bro. I travel to Pune every once in a while - will bring the Slugger down and next time and go for a spin to the factory in your ride!

[ajay_satpute]

I do not think this was a good move by Skoda. First they have trimmed down the engine from 1.4 to 1.2. Secondly, they have stripped off so many basic (basic since Fabia falls in premium hatch segment) features that should have been there as standard.

@Cesc: If you have a look at the Road Tax difference, it is just around 15k, which is not much. Stripping down a Rear Defogger is a pure sin i feel. Common man. Even my 4 lakhs OTR Indica Vista has all these features. I agree we cant compare quality of Tata with that of Skoda, but we are not talking about quality here. We are talking about ROI.

All said and done, I would not have mind all this if atleast there were following 4 features still available:
1) Rear defogger
2) Rear washer and wiper
3) Folding Rear seat
4) Same music system

All other missing features are not very critical and are mostly cosmetic in nature.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Cesc

All in all I think it was the right move by Skoda. You can't have your hatch priced at 30-40% premium to competition and still hope to garner market share. What the company has tried to do is close that gap. Agreed we lost a lot of goodies but IMO for a hatch buyer the price difference generated is greater than the pinch of missing goodies.

Completely agree. And you can see the Fabia nos. growing in T-BHP itself. For me, none of the features omitted can be a deal breaker for a hatch at this price.

[S_U_N]

Originally Posted by pajero4me

Interior:
8. Electro Hydraulic Power steering downgraded to pure electric. (Taken from Polo)
9. Seat Belt Pre tensioners.
10. Third 3 point seat belt on Rear seat (Its two point now)

How much of a difference has point 8 made? Has anyone driven the old and new Fabia's for a comparison?

I think 9 is important from safety, but not very sure. What is the risk without it?
Don't know much about 10, but would like to get opinion from experts.

[pajero4me]

Originally Posted by Cesc

IMO what Skoda is trying to do is compete on an even field with other hatches. The competition does not offer a vast majority of the features you have enumerated in their top models. Some features in your list (like heated OVRMs, middle three point seat belt) are next to useless - I have those on my L&K and have never used them in almost 6 years of ownership. Some others which would be good to have (like rear parking sensors and a good music system) you can get from outside for far cheaper. Yet others nice ones like cooled glovebox and height adjust are just lost - one can't do anything about it.

In complete agrement with you.
But my whole point is that stripping so many features for 1.2L does not add up in terms of simple math even.
Out of the full list my only real heart ache was
1.Electro Hydraulic Steering
2.Rear Wash Wiper
3.Electric external mirror.

Originally Posted by shivir

In agreement with Cesc - Most of the feature omitted are feature that are hard to come by even on some luxury sedans - yes a few simple things have been cut out too. But with the build and ride quality of the cars they have kept the money on the right things.

There is no question on build and safety.Its still 5star.But dint they get a li'l carried away while trimming goodies ?

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

All said and done, I would not have mind all this if atleast there were following 4 features still available:
1) Rear defogger
2) Rear washer and wiper
3) Folding Rear seat
4) Same music system
All other missing features are not very critical and are mostly cosmetic in nature.

Guess you got my point.I feel so irritated when i see some sub 4 lac cars zooming past proudly displaying rear defoggers and Washer wiper

[ajay_satpute]

Hey pajero4me

Could you please comment on the GC of Fabia? I was going through the specs on the Fabia site and it says Min GC is 158 mm. Its damn low for Indian road conditions.

Please throw some light on this.

[shivir]

Originally Posted by S_U_N

How much of a difference has point 8 made? Has anyone driven the old and new Fabia's for a comparison?

I think 9 is important from safety, but not very sure. What is the risk without it?
Don't know much about 10, but would like to get opinion from experts.

Actually a fair bit, while the steering is still class leading, maybe behind the Punto for some, but its not a patch on the old car specially at speed. It is a tad bit light post 110 and the does not give you the high speed control the old one did. But its still very good!

@ Ajay - I have been driving around the cratered surface of Gurgaon now for close to two month and have not had a problem - except for one daft speedbreaker in the office - which gives everyone a problem - except the SUV guys! So dont think of the number as a guide - its not bad at all!

[pajero4me]

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

Hey pajero4me
Could you please comment on the GC of Fabia? I was going through the specs on the Fabia site and it says Min GC is 158 mm. Its damn low for Indian road conditions.
Please throw some light on this.

Here you go buddy.Its a bit tricky here.
According to me its not just the GC that plays a role in underbody scaping.GC + a soft suspension is the one who often plays the dirty trick.
New Fabia any ways has an increased GC compared to the older one. In my case Tdi has tyres 175/70.which gives me some additional GC compared to 185/60 tyres.Now since the suspension is sturdy the car dosent realy bounce down while you negotiate speed breakers.
All these put together i am able rule over almost all speed breakers here in Bangalore ( we have some of the most unscientifc and obscenely large ones here)

Mean while, arent' we all supposed to be working in office now ? I should have written Kilo lines of code by this time

[ajay_satpute]

Originally Posted by pajero4me

Mean while, arent' we all supposed to be working in office now ? I should have written Kilo lines of code by this time

Thanks Shivir and pajero4me for clarifying the GC query. As far as I see the Fabia, the only issue that confused me was the GC. Otherwise, its one hell of a car and i like the Skoda brand for the quality of material on outside and inside both.


Regarding working in office, on Fridays, I am more productive on Team BHP usually.