[Glifford]

Originally Posted by NutsNBolts

Any Linea owners know which Goodyear is fitted on Linea? Is it advisable to change the stock Linea tyres with Assurance. A toss up here is between Primacy LC and Assurance. Assurance seems to be better tyre to a lay person like me. The Goodyear site mentions availability only for Palio and Petra.

Linea comes with the same size as the Fusion (and a few others including Punto Emotion Pack). 195/60R15. The widest you would find in the class.

Sadly there is no Assurance in that exact size in India (there elsewhere in the South East Asian Region).

Options would be:

195/55R15 (Fiesta 1.6S): Slightly Smaller, will reduce GC. 3.17% Smaller
195/65R15 (Civic/Corolla/Octavia): Larger, will improve ride. 3.17% Larger. Too big actually
205/60R15 (Upsize): What I am planning to get on my Fusion. Larger (by a feather) under 2% than stock size. Should do fine if it fits the insides of the car. Best bet.

[NutsNBolts]

Originally Posted by Glifford

Linea comes with the same size as the Fusion (and a few others including Punto Emotion Pack). 195/60R15. The widest you would find in the class.

Sadly there is no Assurance in that exact size in India (there elsewhere in the South East Asian Region).

Options would be:

195/55R15 (Fiesta 1.6S): Slightly Smaller, will reduce GC. 3.17% Smaller
195/65R15 (Civic/Corolla/Octavia): Larger, will improve ride. 3.17% Larger. Too big actually
205/60R15 (Upsize): What I am planning to get on my Fusion. Larger (by a feather) under 2% than stock size. Should do fine if it fits the insides of the car. Best bet.

Thanks for a detailed reply Glifford. A bit of a doubt here. The site here Assurance says that 195/60R15 is available in Assurance. Is it that the product is listed and not available with dealers? With the upgrade, circumference increase is 37.7mm, don't know if Linea wheel bay can adjust to this. Any ideas?

[Glifford]

Originally Posted by NutsNBolts

Thanks for a detailed reply Glifford. A bit of a doubt here. The site here Assurance says that 195/60R15 is available in Assurance. Is it that the product is listed and not available with dealers? With the upgrade, circumference increase is 37.7mm, don't know if Linea wheel bay can adjust to this. Any ideas?

See this post first:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/tyre-a...ml#post1503385

So the point being, these websites are replicated across the SE Asian region without much editing/proof-reading.

Second thing, why are you looking for Assurances for the Linea? Have you got one or plan to get one soon?

Either case, I doubt you would wear out the stock Goodyear GT3 195/60R15 88Ts anytime soon. It is an excellent tyre by itself and even more excellent value for money.

Excellent grip (never a scary moment), excellent life (close to 50,000 km) and very decent price. What more do you want?

Only issues that they are a little hard (on the Fusion) and noisy (again on the Fusion). On the Linea, you have excellent ride, so the bumps will be absorbed by the suspension (if not the tyre) and sound deadening may be more too (so noise is less too).

Stick to stock till they wear out and then think of upgrades. I am sure they should serve you well for at least 40,000 km!

The reason I am changing is simply because they are almost worn out and there is tread deformation on one tyre. 48,600 and I would have loved to touch 50,000! Hence am trying out something different from stock. Else they do more than fine!

Finally on the size aspect. Which tyre size are you talking of? AFAIK, the 205/60R15 is just 6 mm (radius, 12 mm Dia) larger than the stock 195/60R15. Fits the Fusion. You will have to try it out in the Linea. Feel around the tyre in different steering positions, the next time you give your car a wash!

[NutsNBolts]

Thanks for the guidance Glifford. This post clears lots of cob-webs for me. I do not own a Linea yet, but have booked one and awaiting delivery. I agree with your suggestion of sticking with stock and upgrade after tyres have worn out. Thanks.

[Nikhilb2008]

I'm sorry! The GT3s are rubbish tyres!

I dont know much about the Assurance and Excellence range so I have stayed out of this discussion. But the GT3s are rubbish! It makes a lot of sense to pay a few thousand rupees and upgrade to Primacy LCs or COntinentals or Yokos.

The GT3s, the GPS2s, are among the crappiest tyres in the country. Most OEM tyres(MRF, JK vectras, Bridgestone S322s) are crap, but the goodyears seem to redefine "cheap and bad" tyres.

[WasavaTyres]

I guess you've been selling only Primacy LC's,Conti's and Yoko's for long !! GT3's compound and sidewall construction has been changed and improved over the past year and the sidewall on the tyres being shipped now is much better than the earlier lot. And considering that India has more of budget buyers than those who're willing to shell out princely sums for tires which to many people are still something of an necessary expenditure rather than a safety investment, I think it's fair enough that Goodyear offers GT3 and GPS2 alongside their Duraplus / Assurance / Excellence and now the Ducaro Hi-Miler tyres. And as you can see from a fellow BHPian's experience GT3 have lasted him quite long and satisfactorily. Besides GY is not an isolated case, B'stone have their S322 for budget buyers while also offering ER60 and B250 and GIII potenza. Apollo has Amazer XL / Hawkz and Accelere. MRF has Zigma VT / CT and ZVTS. It's the same story across brands.

Michelin and Conti sell their select imported tyres here so one does not know about thier 'value' range. In yoko's case they have A-drive and S-drive, do you think the sidewall rigidity on both these tyres are the same ?? At the end of the day you only get as much as you pay for. And if someone is happy (considering individual driving styles and patterns) with the life and performance of a particular tyre why would he want to pay a premium for something else.

[Nikhilb2008]

I'm not even talking about sidewalls. Generally, the GT3s and more often the GPS2s develop a wobble after 10-15k kms. It is so common! I'm not making this up. I've seen for myself. It becomes extremely difficult to balance GY tyres after approximately half it's life is done.

See, we sell max no. of BS, MRF and Apollo. The imported tyres account for a minority of sales. I'm sure this is common with any dealer in India. We dont have much experience with Goodyear, especially the newer patterns and that is why I stayed away from this discussion.

But when it comes to the GPS2s and GT3s, it's a constant headache for us! People blame us for not doing a good job with the balancing, but it's nearly impossible! We've tried various settings on the balancer and it keeps saying the tyre is ok, but the driver keeps complaining of wobbling problems.

We never have this problem with any other tyre. MRF, BS, Apollo, even JK Vectras are decent in this regard

[Glifford]

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

I'm sorry! The GT3s are rubbish tyres!

Right ! That is a sharp statement! What evidence do you have to back it up? Just a blanket statement to express your feelings is not logic.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

I dont know much about the Assurance and Excellence range so I have stayed out of this discussion. But the GT3s are rubbish! It makes a lot of sense to pay a few thousand rupees and upgrade to Primacy LCs or COntinentals or Yokos.

The GT3s, the GPS2s, are among the crappiest tyres in the country. Most OEM tyres(MRF, JK vectras, Bridgestone S322s) are crap, but the goodyears seem to redefine "cheap and bad" tyres.

Well there is something called value. Many people's needs are different and manufacturers try to satisfy as many as they can. As Wasava clearly pointed, most Indians are extremely value concious. They want things to last. Tyres manufactured and normally fitted as OE suit this criterion very well!

Regarding "A few thousand Rupees", how can we decide that everyone needs an upgrade by default? Many people hardly push their cars (whether cornering or accelerating (braking maybe)) to the limit of their tyres. These people are happy with OE and stick to stock. They don't need to waste their money on softer, stickier tyres that cost double and wear out much much faster. They will call such tyres the same words you describe OE tyres. Remember your and their needs are different!

Many people complain about the MRF Zappers that come on the Pulsar. They are hard last long, but brake hard (even on dry and the bike fishtails like crazy). Are they bad? For my requirements, yes. I'd be happy to pay 3 times more and get a Michelin or Pirelli! But can I say they are bad tyres?

NO! Why? Because they meet the requirements of several bikers across the nation!

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

I'm not even talking about sidewalls. Generally, the GT3s and more often the GPS2s develop a wobble after 10-15k kms. It is so common! I'm not making this up. I've seen for myself. It becomes extremely difficult to balance GY tyres after approximately half it's life is done.

But when it comes to the GPS2s and GT3s, it's a constant headache for us! People blame us for not doing a good job with the balancing, but it's nearly impossible! We've tried various settings on the balancer and it keeps saying the tyre is ok, but the driver keeps complaining of wobbling problems.

Are you sure the equipment is fine or the vehicles are fine?

On the Fusion group, there is hardly any complaint regarding the stock GT3s that come on the Fusion. They grip well (I love aggressive cornering even in the wet), last long (close to 50,000 km) and cost hardly anything. And none of us have faced the balancing issue you speak of!

Only complaints being the hard ride (amplified in the Fusion) and road noise.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

See, we sell max no. of BS, MRF and Apollo. The imported tyres account for a minority of sales. I'm sure this is common with any dealer in India. We dont have much experience with Goodyear, especially the newer patterns and that is why I stayed away from this discussion.

We never have this problem with any other tyre. MRF, BS, Apollo, even JK Vectras are decent in this regard

Honestly, as a tyre dealer yourself, I am surprised that you can get confused between an Assurance and DuraPlus!

The only reason I want a change is now I get a chance to try something new. It is getting very hard for me to justify a significant premium over stock GT3s

[NutsNBolts]

And I am confused again. Here are two gurus explaining either side of coin, and I don't know whether I should opt for upgrade or not. In my view, If a problem crops up, as told by nikhil, after 10-15K, going for a upgrade at that point of time will be a double whammy as resale will be totally of dustbin nature. So once again, please do advise; whether it is worthwhile to go for an upgrade of stock GT3 with Assurance at the time of delivery.

Edit: By the time I posted this, Glifford's post was up. The doubt still stands. Any idea on tyre exchange costs between GT3 and Assurance? This might help in reaching a decision.

[Matt]

A bit more OT discussion from my side.

I have used GT3s and the only good thing about them is that they last 40K+ kms. Things I could not take any more were it's horrible tyre noise and grip under wet conditions. I must say that the GT3s had the worst grip on the wet roads. I had many heart in mouth moments when I drove it in Kerala. One more thing about GT3 + Fusion combination, there was a pronounced wobbling/jerking feeling at certain high speeds. My steering used to vibrate bit more when the car is travelling at 115-120 Kmph. This vibration is not there when the speeds are above or below this range.

On the other hand Michelin PLC offers better grip, absolutely no tyre noise, very comfortable plush feeling and no more jerks at high speeds. All these comes at a huge price difference. Whether the price diff is worth it or not, is personal. I thought about weeks to finally settle with PLCs.

My opinion is based on my experience with GT3 + Fusion combo. I have travelled in a Grande Punto E+ which comes with GT3s and the ride was much comfortable. Can't comment about the grip and cornering abilities in this case.

[Glifford]

Originally Posted by NutsNBolts

And I am confused again. Here are two gurus explaining either side of coin, and I don't know whether I should opt for upgrade or not. In my view, If a problem crops up, as told by nikhil, after 10-15K, going for a upgrade at that point of time will be a double whammy as resale will be totally of dustbin nature. So once again, please do advise; whether it is worthwhile to go for an upgrade of stock GT3 with Assurance at the time of delivery.

Edit: By the time I posted this, Glifford's post was up. The doubt still stands. Any idea on tyre exchange costs between GT3 and Assurance? This might help in reaching a decision.

Couple of things here. No harm trying out a new car as it comes (esp, if it is your first car). Don't go to change many things You need to run-in your driving skills with the car as much as (or more than) running in the car itself. GT3s cost a shade over 2500 a piece new. So I am not sure how much you can get for them in exchange! 5000/6000? I don't know resale rates, so cannot comment.

If some problem does crop up after 15,000 km (which I doubt), try claiming warranty if it is still valid. If not how much have you lost? Any expensive replacement will be around 4000-5000 a piece, so the GT3s are a cheap thing in comparison. Try it out if your risk appetite allows.

Also which version are you getting? If you are getting anything below Emotion Pack (with Alloys), and you planning on spending separately on alloys, then you have the freedom of choice and can go to a size you want. If you getting OE alloys, I say stick with them.

Now my experience is first hand with my Fusion running at end of life tyres, in all kinds of terrain. Good, bad, ugly, no roads and so on. And I was impressed. Water logged roads, slush and they survived. When Shiradi (Bangalore Mangalore route) was in good shape, I remember being chased by a Corolla driven by a professional driver up the ghats. I managed to keep pace on the curves and gave way on the straights. The tyres behaved well. Very well. Now it's time to replace them, so looking for a change.

Another thing you need to consider. Assurance doesn't come in stock OE size for the Fusion or Linea. So you need to either up size or downsize. Something you would not like to do with a car still in warranty. Coz if you have a claim they can just write it off by saying "non-spec tyres". So keep that into consideration.

Originally Posted by Matt

A bit more OT discussion from my side.

I have used GT3s and the only good thing about them is that they last 40K+ kms. Things I could not take any more were it's horrible tyre noise and grip under wet conditions. I must say that the GT3s had the worst grip on the wet roads. I had many heart in mouth moments when I drove it in Kerala. One more thing about GT3 + Fusion combination, there was a pronounced wobbling/jerking feeling at certain high speeds. My steering used to vibrate bit more when the car is travelling at 115-120 Kmph. This vibration is not there when the speeds are above or below this range.

Are you a member of the Ford Fusion Yahoo Group? This is a common issue discussed there (search for "steering vibrations at 120 kmph). It was discovered to be a balancing issue and a good balancer can resolve it. Note "Good", as there is a decent between decent and good. We trust alignment and balancing not at Ford Service Stations, but specialised ones like at Tyre Empire.

BTW, many people still recommend sticking to the (cheap) stock GT3s as you get no-complaints performance and life at an excellent price. Some others have made a switch to higher performance BSs, Michelins and Yokos as they are better in aspects such as grip and ride, but again they are willing to pay the price of higher initial cost and lower life!

Originally Posted by Matt

On the other hand Michelin PLC offers better grip, absolutely no tyre noise, very comfortable plush feeling and no more jerks at high speeds. All these comes at a huge price difference. Whether the price diff is worth it or not, is personal. I thought about weeks to finally settle with PLCs.

Exactly, the Primacy LC is a much softer tyre, offers better grip and it shows. But yes, it will last less and cost much much more. So not everyone wants to take that hit. As you said, it is a personal choice

Originally Posted by Matt

My opinion is based on my experience with GT3 + Fusion combo. I have travelled in a Grande Punto E+ which comes with GT3s and the ride was much comfortable. Can't comment about the grip and cornering abilities in this case.

That is because the Grande Punto (or Linea for that matter) come with a much softer suspension setup. FIATs are renowned for their mastering the thin line between ride and handling and both these new cars are testimony to that.

The Ford Fusion on the other hand has a hard suspension setup. This is because it is a tall car and hence naturally higher CG. And it is precisely because of that, that it handles so well! If it had a plush ride, its handling would be like other tall-boys or even like the Scorpio!

[WasavaTyres]

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

But when it comes to the GPS2s and GT3s, it's a constant headache for us ! People blame us for not doing a good job with the balancing, but it's nearly impossible ! We've tried various settings on the balancer and it keeps saying the tyre is ok, but the driver keeps complaining of wobbling problems.

On a lighter note Nikhil, must be that the high end hunter and hoffman machines dislike the cheap and bad goodyear's hence they act up
I use local and cheap manatec machines and I've never had issues with either balancing or alignment results. Must be indian-indian bhai-bhai logic.

Seriously speaking to each his own. Please don't generalize a brand or product purely on your personal experience. There are people who still swear by nylon tyres for their durability and service life. It's their call,we can't trash their opinion 'coz we find radials to be superior in performance and quality.

[Matt]

@Glifford

Yea, for any high speed wobbling issues I normally resort to a WB from a reputed place. But the problem is that after 500-1K kms the wobbling used to return.
Then one of my friends who has Fusion told me that he also used to have this issue and he also used to go for WB. And the problem used to return after some time. Later he changed the tyre to Yokos(don't know which one). He has a FF Diesel, and he clocks around 15K+ kms per annum. He never faced the wobbling issues with Yokos.

Yea, I do agree that Michelin comes at a huge premium. I wish they were available at slightly lesser price.

PS:
fully irrelevant in this topic. But still, I saw an increase in the FE of my car after moving to Michelin PLC. I used to get around 9.9 -10 Kmpl(city) before. But this time I got 11.2 Kmpl(city). But there is one more change that I happened this time. This time I filled Shell normal compared to Shell Premium for the previous fills. I thought premium should give more FE than the normal. But it happened other wise.

[Nikhilb2008]

The way everyone has an opinion and this being a place to air it, I aired my opinion. And it still stands! I frankly wouldnt recommend the GT3 or GPS2 to ANYONE.

If they want a cheap, rugged, long lasting tyre, I will suggest MRF, Apollo and BS, but never Goodyear. Everyone has a different opinion and you are entitled to yours!

The balancing issue is common. I dont know nor do I want to guess about other people, but in our experience, it is most common with Goodyear GPS2, followed to a slightly lesser extent with the GT3s.

Wasava --- I did not generalise as a brand! I have no clue where you got that from! I'm against the GPS2s and the GT3s from GY. I have said a couple of times before that I dont know much about the Assurance, Excellence and so I will not really comment on that.

And why is everyone having a problem with me having a strong opinion?!?! Most of the guys on this forum(I know Wasavatyres is NOT among them) have very strong opinions regarding the Indian brands like MRF/JK/Apollo and keep calling them crap. I frankly dont think so.

Mr.Glifford, before you make any assumptions as to my comments, I suggest you read my past posts over the past year or so. I've consistently defended MRFs becuase I believe that they are perfect for 90% of Indians. Most TBHPians fall in the small 10% of Indians who cannot do with MRF/Apollo/ S322s. You really dont need to try to lecture me about value of money when it comes to tyres and Indian roads. You need to realise WHY the Goodyears GPS2s and the GT3s are so common as OEM fitments. Becuase they are CHEAP. And cheap things always come with disadvantages. This doesnt mean you should never buy them, but you should know what you are getting into. Like, when you buy an Alto, it's cheap, easy to run. But there are some disadvantages which come with the car. As long as you are aware of it, then it's ok! Not everyone can afford a Merc or BMW!

You will never realise the value of Michelin, Yoko, Conti, etc... until you actually USE it on your own car for one whole life cycle. Of course, it's upto you whether you want to invest so much or not.

[Glifford]

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

The way everyone has an opinion and this being a place to air it, I aired my opinion. And it still stands! I frankly wouldnt recommend the GT3 or GPS2 to ANYONE.

If they want a cheap, rugged, long lasting tyre, I will suggest MRF, Apollo and BS, but never Goodyear. Everyone has a different opinion and you are entitled to yours!

Wasava --- I did not generalise as a brand! I have no clue where you got that from! I'm against the GPS2s and the GT3s from GY. I have said a couple of times before that I dont know much about the Assurance, Excellence and so I will not really comment on that.

And why is everyone having a problem with me having a strong opinion?!?!

I don't think anyone has a problem with your having a strong opinion . Everyone does (in some area or the other). What matters is the way you put it across.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

Most of the guys on this forum(I know Wasavatyres is NOT among them) have very strong opinions regarding the Indian brands like MRF/JK/Apollo and keep calling them crap. I frankly dont think so.

Mr.Glifford, before you make any assumptions as to my comments, I suggest you read my past posts over the past year or so. I've consistently defended MRFs becuase I believe that they are perfect for 90% of Indians. Most TBHPians fall in the small 10% of Indians who cannot do with MRF/Apollo/ S322s. You really dont need to try to lecture me about value of money when it comes to tyres and Indian roads.

Well That is one reason I suggest sticking to OE till you find it is not meeting your personal standards. And yes, Indian manufacturers do know the Indian market and psyche well. Hence they tailor products accordingly.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

You need to realise WHY the Goodyears GPS2s and the GT3s are so common as OEM fitments. Becuase they are CHEAP. And cheap things always come with disadvantages.

I don't buy this argument! Does that mean every OE fitment is cheap. The wiper blades, the battery, the rims, the cams, the air filter?

Years back Hyundais came exclusively on Bridgestones. Were BSs cheap then?

Why is Exide the most popular OE battery manufacturer? Are they the cheapest?

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

This doesnt mean you should never buy them, but you should know what you are getting into. Like, when you buy an Alto, it's cheap, easy to run. But there are some disadvantages which come with the car. As long as you are aware of it, then it's ok! Not everyone can afford a Merc or BMW!

Exactly! As long as you know the disadvantages against the advantages and you are OK with it. You are fine. One reason I may stick to MRF (different model tho') when I change my bike tyres soon.

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

You will never realise the value of Michelin, Yoko, Conti, etc... until you actually USE it on your own car for one whole life cycle. Of course, it's upto you whether you want to invest so much or not.

Possibly. That is why I am not replacing my worn OEs with the same ones. Instead of going the beaten path (names you have listed above), I may try Assurance as it features as a very good tyre (in tests and awards). Not many have test reports here on TBHP, hence I may post mine soon.