[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Harit has some more to add after reading the last few posts.
One must remember that over the years of shifting and lying in various garages for restorations these cars lost a lot of their trims and then when you think that these cars have been restored to a reasonably good and complete condition, how many parts Indore has had in his stock to get the job done

Thank you Harit and Karl for helping to substantiate these car's history.
What those abroad don't realise is that despite the genuine interest and intent of owners in the preservation/restoration of these cars in India it is 5 times more difficult than in other climes due to the climate/available infrastructure/import duties/circumstances. For every car that disappeared forever in India maybe 2-3 disappeared in the west. So kudos and appeciation for all enthusiasts in India. So many interesting cars have survived and can be appreciated by so many.



Hi V16, we need a CADILLAC thread, not a Caddilac thread especially for the V16s and massive photos of the Orccha/Orcha V16

[Roger OZ]

This photo is from an album of the late Mr. Neville Fernando of Ceylon (Sri Lanka). It is reproduced here with the kind permission of his son Mr. Dickie Fernando of Melbourne, Australia.

Neville Fernando embarked on a leisurely tour of India when his plans for a trip through Europe were stalled by the outbreak of World War II. Therefore it may be assumed that this photo was taken in late 1939/early 1940 or thereabouts. Evidently, through contacts made as a motor car salesman in Ceylon, and other business interests in India, Neville was able to gain access to the motor stables in several of the princely states he visited.

Although mildewed and only a partial view, the image at least shows this remarkable Silver Ghost while it was still in the custody of the Mysore ruling house.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Roger OZ

Does anybody know how this Jodhpur-delivered car ended up in Udaipur?

Its a known fact that the Udaipur family has acquired cars recently to add to a collection shown as the royal family's garage. I am not certain but I think the ones that do remain from the Udaipur family's collection are the "Jeep" and "Truck" RR, a pair of Caddy's and some Mercs.

BTW some of the ertwhile royal families' garages were as impressive as the cars they housed!

[Steve Stuckey]

Thanks very much to Harit for updates on two of the PIIIs in India. It does my heart good to know that they are restored and back to their former glory. I know the Indian climate is harsh on such cars, so their survival is clearly the result of true enthusiasts.

[karlosdeville]

More from Harit

The Rolls thread. Julian was asking about the 20HP next to the XK 120/140. Well, this car is alive, has been restored and still resides in India. It is originally from a famous Maharaja's Rolls stable and came to Mumbai. It has some history. On the left side of the pic is also a Rolls, this also survives.

About the Mysore Rolls, link 497, this car left India when export was still permitted. In fact, there is a story I read a few years ago. The person who took this car out had come to the Maharaja to buy guns. He had an appointment but was kept waiting. The Maharaja was apologetic and offered him to take one car. (I do not think it was for free). So this gentleman selected this and took it out and promptly sold. About 3 to 4 years ago this car was offered for sale fully restored in USA for 1 million dollars, later reduced to something like 99K. Anyhow, Pranlal had a Ghost chassis and built a replica on it.

Attached find a pic of MHC 707 as she was with Chatterjee.



I also see the ex Rajkot Chrylser Aiflow nearby. It is currently with Bhogilal and painted mettalic red, blue and green!

I have a general comment which you please let all see. I know for a fact that a lot of persons, some of whom I even know personally are reading these threads. It would be nice if they also contribute. I would not expect anyone to divulge secrets, locations etc. but if one contributes to updating history what is the harm? One should take care that no tales are written and they should be to the best of personal knowledge. Even in history books errors creep in, but they should not be deliberate. And there are many who read the thread and can correct. When I have mentioned that the 2 PIII's are alive and well in Indore, there was no harm in sharing. If they are ever sold I will not be able to afford, and it will give credit to the owner that he has managed to restore them quite well. And guys were happy to hear that these cars are well. And I did not invade on his privacy as the events happened before he owned them and I have not posted the pictures as the cars are today. Someone else could go to him and request him.

Harit

[karlosdeville]

Heres another Wraith in Delhi, originally Mysore and Bharatpur Awini tells me She used to be maroon, then silver and now green. I found pics of the car in green in 2004 in xoticars vast archive.





And Steve, looking forward to daily (!) tales from you on Rolls Royce's Indian connections.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Hi V16, we need a CADILLAC thread, not a Caddilac thread especially for the V16s and massive photos of the Orccha/Orcha V16

Thank you for pointing out my obvious weakness in the spelt word.
Will try to make sure I check my posts before I hit the "submit reply" tab the next time

[karlosdeville]

I had come across this picture of a Rolls at Pebble beach ages back, and vaguely recall it being mentioned as a Maharaja car. It could be the Kolhapur PIII. What say?

Originally Posted by V-16

Thank you for pointing out my obvious weakness in the spelt word.
Will try to make sure I check my posts before I hit the "submit reply" tab the next time

Especially considering the pedigree of your handle!

Anyways what happened with that handmade Rolls/Buick/Jag you posted some time back? Any further updates?

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by V-16

before I hit the "submit reply" tab the next time

Wonderful Cadillac web site V16 very interesting photos and info.

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

I had come across this picture of a Rolls at Pebble beach ages back, and vaguely recall it being mentioned as a Maharaja car. It could be the Kolhapur PIII. What say?

Attachment 29496 Attachment 29497

Your PIII photo looks like the same car Karl.

I suddenly have all these photos from a Delhi collection,and permission to post them, most of the cars have already been posted so I'm not sure if it will be over doing it by posting them all. Lovely photos and backgrounds though.
At least I will post the ones which are obviously better than the previous photos and the top views.
I have just finally seen the "The Automobiles of the Maharajahs" book by Sharada Dwivedi and Manvendra Singh Barwani. Isn't it a wonderful book, it has some very, very interesting content indeed. Buy one today before they run out. I hope its reprinted then I might get to own one.

Here is Silver Wraith WSG29 1951 H J Mulliner Sedanca de Ville:

[Roger OZ]

"Heres another Wraith in Delhi, originally Mysore and Bharatpur..."

Hi karlosdeville!

As a 'newbie' to the forum I continue to be impressed by the superb contributions from people like yourself, DKG, Julian UK, Steve Stuckey, park-ward, etc. Please keep up the great work.

But as a nit-picking pedant from way back may I please suggest that we make a clear distinction between the pre-war 25/30 hp Wraith and the post-war Silver Wraith (the latter as seen in the magnificent xoticar photos you have posted).

Sadly, even Manvendra Singh Barwani has added to the terminological inaccuracy and confusion in his book 'The Automobiles of the Maharajas'. On page 263 a photo of a pre-war 25/30 hp Wraith is captioned "post-war Rolls-Royce Wraith", while on page 266 another caption describes a Silver Wraith as "a Rolls-Royce Wraith 1949".

And, Julian UK, re' your expressed desire to own a copy of the Barwani/Dwivedi book, perhaps one of your many forum friends in India may care to seek out and 'donate' a copy in recognition of your sterling work in documenting and sharing your encyclopaedic knowledge of the Indian cars!

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Roger OZ

But as a nit-picking pedant from way back may I please suggest that we make a clear distinction between the pre-war 25/30 hp Wraith and the post-war Silver Wraith (the latter as seen in the magnificent xoticar photos you have posted).

Hi Roger,

Do forgive my ignorance on the distinction between the two. I merely used the term "Wraith" as a short form for "Silver Wraith". Today I learnt that the 25/30 was called the "Wraith" as well.

Thank you!

EDIT - Julian I recognise those pictures. They were published in an issue of Auto Motor und Sport covering the Jaiswal collection. It was written by none other than our very own Awini.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Roger OZ

This photo is from an album of the late Mr. Neville Fernando of Ceylon (Sri Lanka). It is reproduced here with the kind permission of his son Mr. Dickie Fernando of Melbourne, Australia.

Although mildewed and only a partial view, the image at least shows this remarkable Silver Ghost while it was still in the custody of the Mysore ruling house.

Just to create a link, this is probably the same car we earlier discussed as well. I remember we discussed the fenders, so which is the original design?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/768193-post25.html

[Julian UK]

At Karl's request:
1937 RR 25/30 GRO48 DHCB/All Weather H H Maharajah of Darbhanga









I believe it is a cream colour now as it was originally.

[Roger OZ]

"Hi Roger, Do forgive my ignorance on the distinction between the two. I merely used the term "Wraith" as a short form for "Silver Wraith". Today I learnt that the 25/30 was called the "Wraith" as well."


Hello again karlosdeville,

Usually, as a matter of convenience when speaking, people tend to say "Wraith" when they really mean "Silver Wraith", so don't worry - you are not alone! It's just that in a forum like this, it's a good idea to stick to the correct terminology to avoid confusion.

But please note that there is a further important distinction between the 25/30 hp - with semi-elliptic front suspension - and the 25/30 hp Wraith - with independent front suspension (as on the Phantom III). So it is incorrect to assume that 'the 25/30 (the model with semi-elliptic front springs) was called the "Wraith" as well.'

They are two separate models, the Wraith being the successor to the 25/30 hp, and the last and logical pre-war development of the series of so-called 'small-horsepower' Rolls-Royce cars that began with the 20 hp in 1922 (as distinct from the 40/50 hp Silver Ghost and Phantoms I, II and III).

Apart from the front suspension, there are other detail differences between the 25/30 hp and Wraith. Bernard King's Complete Classics no. 2 volume 'The Rolls-Royce 25/30 h.p. and Wraith' is a useful reference source on both types.

Ideally, it should be sufficient to describe the Wraith as, simply, "Wraith" - without the "25/30 hp" prefix. But, to avoid confusion between pre-war Wraith and post-war Silver Wraith, some writers tend to add the "25/30 hp" tag when referring to the Wraith.

To the best of my knowledge, only one Wraith was delivered new to India, WLB 25, a Park Ward limousine. The original owner was V.T. Chetty. It is probably also still the only Wraith in India (owned by Vijay Mallya?), although I may stand corrected on this point. Does anybody know?

Separately, thank you for your link to the Mysore Silver Ghost 1683.

[Julian UK]

Here is WLB25 a 1939 RR Wraith (1938-39) which shares very few or no components with the 25/30.



Source team-bhp


The lad in the 2nd photo (circa 1989) often appeared in the photos I took at the time, I never had the heart to try and move him. He is probably 30 now and seeing these photos, I hope so.