[HPP]

I'll have to check out this whole thread to see if anything pops out at me, but our family(also extended family) had a few in HYD back in the day.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

As requested by several members and mods I hope some will be interested, it is a work in progress and open to modification. If it doesn't help anyone please PM me and we can develop it to suit it's audience. This is a BASIC guide to recognising a Silver Ghost and to what era it was manufactured.

Many thanks Julian, this will be very useful. Perhaps some commission numbers could be added to this list too. Once the lists for all models is done, we could lock them and place them at the start.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

This is a BASIC guide to recognising a Silver Ghost and to what era it was manufactured.

Great effort Julian. Now we are getting into some serious hobby pursuit!!

There's a lot of info you crammed into that one post. Could we perhaps break it down into sections and spend more time on each identifying feature?

For example lets start with the Grill. Lets have pictures of all variations of the Ghost grill with the years they came on and the dimensions.

Next post could take the lamps and list out all possible variations.

Then wheels, and so on

What say?

I would also like to learn the distinct styling cues of the different coachbuilders, like your pointing out the fender lights to be a Barker feature.

[Steve Stuckey]

By the time the first of the BU series of Phantom III was being produced (the third series after AZ and AX) the model was streaming to India; seven went originally, of which this is the fifth, a car not as special as the previous car I wrote about, 3BU86.

Chassis 3BU102 was sent away from the Derby factory on 25 January 1937, set up for use in India and fitted with engine B98A and steering at the high and formal C setting.

The chassis was sent to Hooper & Co on 6 February, where they built a limousine body, number 8762 to design 6790, the only body of this design on a PIII. The car was finished in dark blue and black, with one spare wheel only, and no wheel discs. Inside the upholstery was in dark blue leather throughout; an electric fan was fitted in the division cabinet.

The chassis had been ordered by Lagonda Motors on 29 October 1935 (the PIII having been announced earlier that month) for supply to Colonel Maharaja Sir Umaid Singhi Sahib Bahadur of Jodhpur (8 July 1908 - 9 June 1947), the sovereign of Mewar State who succeeded on 3 October 1918. The Maharaj was a prolific owner of RR and Bentley cars. Those I know of are: Silver Ghosts 18EU (Barker limousine) as a used car and 24EU (Barker cabriolet); Twenty HP's GH73 (Barker landaulette), GRK69 (Barker coupe) and GLK21 (Barker tourer); Phantom I's 9LC (Barker tourer) and 94RF (Windovers limousine), Phantom II's 15RY (Binder drophead coupe), 62UK (Gurney Nutting coupe) and 80UK (Windovers drophead coupe) and Bentley 3.5 litre B183EJ (Gurney Nutting coupe).

The car was completed on 12 April 1937, and shipped to Bombay aboard the ss "Nowshera" on 12 June.

It is reported that the second owner of the car was in 1947, and was the American Ambassador to the new state of India. The car was shipped to Oregon, USA in 1970 by new owner Ken Higgins; he had it for sale in May 1970 for $8,500 but it did not sell. When I saw the car in California in mid-1997 it was for sale by a dealer for $49,500, still with its original paint and leather (and electric fan) and with a real 24,700 miles on the clock. It had been in storage since 1970. It was still wearing Indian registration number WBA2726, but had a document that said it had also been registered WBB67.

The car is still owned in the USA.

The photo below was taken by the official Hooper & Co photographer on 21 April 1937.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Steve Stuckey

the sovereign of Mewar State

Mewar would be Udaipur family

Impressive machine. BTW of all the cars I believe only the PI 94RF and the PII 80UK remain with the family

[Julian UK]

3BU102?


I think this one was from Travencore.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

3BU102?

Attachment 31780
I think this one was from Travencore.

Nope, was from me. I found it online years back and saved the photo only as the registration looked Indian to me. Im glad this mystery is solved.

[Steve Stuckey]

This Phantom III - unusually for a car going to India by being fitted with a French body - was the second PIII to go to the Baroda royal family. It was sent off test from Derby on 18 February 1937, set up for use in Europe and India for town and touring purposes. It was fitted with engine Q88K, and steering at the high C rake.

The chassis was sent by the ss "Mallard" from London to Boulogne on 2 March, and would have been sent to Paris by truck. It went to the coachbuilders Kellner, who built a limousine body on the chassis. It had a spare wheel to each side, and was finished in light two-tone, one colour of which was probably cream; the car had a broad chrome-plated metal strip to the swage line below the windows. The car was fitted with Marchal lamps (headlamps, wing lamps and two fog lamps), common for use in Europe.

Amongst the special changes to the chassis were, as the RR records say "Ivory white equipment, including: ivory white steering wheel, change gear and brake lever handles; inspection plug socket; gauge light switch and petrol pump switch. Chromium finish to switch box, control quadrant on steering column, starter carburettor quadrant on instrument board; engraved flange for petrol pump switch. White dials and black figures to instruments". All this only cost 5 pounds and 5 shillings.

The chassis was ordered by Paris RR dealer Franco-Brittanic Autos Ltd in November 1936, and they arranged for the coachwork. The car was for sale to Her Highness Maharani Gajra Bai (born Ghatge), Chima Bai II of Baroda (1871 - 1958); she was the second wife of the Gaekwar Maharaja, and had married him in 1885. The Maharaja owned Phantom III 3AX201 (see post 464) and the Crown Prince would own 3CP112. Her next RR was Silver Wraith ALW2.

The car was delivered in May 1937 with French registration 263.TT7X. It is not known when it was sent to India. It also had registration BARODA3.

In 1973 the car was owned by Ram Chander, and now has a New Delhi owner.

The photos below are, firstly from the RR Bulletin (a magazine sent to owners) dated March 1938 and show the car at the Gardenia Concours d'Elegance at St Cloud Golf Course, near Paris, on 21 October 1937 and, secondly, in London on 12 June 1938. The second photo is from Tim Harding in the UK via Tom Clarke.

[Steve Stuckey]

The next Phantom III in India has been the subject of postings on this thread already (numbers 71 and 313). It is unusual for our list in not having been sent to India originally. It left the factory on 12 February 1937, with engine Z68C and steering at the C rake. It was set up to be used only in the UK, for both town work and touring.

The chassis had been ordered on 6 March 1936 by dealer L C Rawlence & Co. of London, and the chassis went to the coachbuilders on 24 February. Windovers built a limousine on the chassis, with body number 6443.

The car had been ordered by Max Van der Linde of 1 Throgmorton Street in London; he died in 1958 but I know nothing more about him, other than that he also owned Bentleys: 3.5 litre B56DG, and H J Mulliner saloon, 4.25 litre B32MR, a Thrupp & Maberly saloon and, after the War, Mark VI B310BH. It is interesting to note that Linde's chauffeur, S J Bragge, graduated from the RR School of Instruction on 22 May 1937; he had been with Linde for 10 years. This is an example of information one can get from the wonderful RR company archives that are held at the RREC in England.

I next know of 3BU120 when it was owned by R Barker in India in 1964, and then the next year by the Metal Box Co. of Calcutta. In 1976 it was in the possession of D G C Gidwaney who gave his address as London, but in 1992 it was with J Jaiswal in New Delhi, by which time it was carrying registration DBG.1938. It is now owned by Amitabh Adhar, and has been in the Hindustan Times electronic edition of March 2002, and The Financial Express electronic edition of March 21, 2002.

The photo below is one that has not appeared in this thread before.

[Julian UK]

Thank you Steve for these magnificent posts of the PIIIs there might not be too much applause but I bet there's a lot of copying and pasting going on

These are screenshots from a DVD of old film that has come from my cousin in West Bengal. There are Mayurbhanj numberplates and also some Royalty. So can anyone identify the cars and the people? If anyone is very interested I can burn a copy and send it to them, its about 15 minutes long.
It is a very great shame that these watermarks are spoiling some of the photographs.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

I bet there's a lot of copying and pasting going on

Lets just hope the copy pasting will do wonders to the realm of Indian automotive history what the Japanese did to technology they copied

I am certain Steve's contributions are deeply appreciated by all who read through. I thoroughly enjoy Steve's posts as I learn something new with each post. Peculiarly here in India most collectors/enthusiasts keep a lot of vital information to their chests and perhaps take it to their graves. But this refreshingly is the right spirit and hopefully many more would follow suit and share interesting tales and information here.

Obviously most people would have limited knowledge not warranting a separate book by itself which makes forums like these a more versatile medium to share with many.

When I first saw the vintage section here there was hardly anything of specific interest. But see where its gone to now. There's actually a treasure of information in these threads and what's important is its all there for anyone anywhere in the world to read.

Manvendra Singh is trying to put a lifetime's exposure to the world of automobiles in India into books he is writing. You Julian having spent a significant part of your life in association with awesome automobiles have shared so much here. Many more have added extraordinary bits and pieces of information here. And now Steve with his research.

What about all the collectors, the many stories they have to tell. Pranlal Bhogilal is not exactly a young man with a long life ahead. Who will capture the wealth of information in his mind which would be a treasure trove in itself. What about Sharad Sanghi, the Ivory Palace people and many other collectors. India has always been pathetic in recording history. Had it not been for the keen interest of foreign visitors/historians we would be poorer today in knowledge of our own heritage.

This process of recording information is very precious and must continually go on.

My sincere appreciation and thanks to all who contribute here.

[Alvis]

DKG has spoken, I am sure, for a vast majority of us. This thread has some priceless information and you can bet I am pasting and copying like mad.
Something new to learn every day.

[Steve Stuckey]

This car left the factory on 8 February 1937, set up for use in India, and with steering at the middle E rake; it was fitted with engine R78J. On the same day the chassis was sent to coachbuilders Barker & Co.

Barker built a seven-passenger cabriolet on the chassis; it was a cabriolet because it had a division and occasional seats; a tourer would have neither of those things. It was body number 7269 to design E7618. The car was finished in ivory paint with a brown hood. The leather was in ivory to both front and rear compartments. Included in the body were scuttle and wing lamps, a Safebeam Super foglamp with Nebulite orange/amber glass on a chrome-plated bar between the headlamps (missing in th efirst photo below). There was a Philco radio and a light to the back of the division rail. The main (back) seat had a special adjustment to base and squab, and it was 21 inches deep. The body cost 675 pounds and the whole car 2,085 pounds.

The car had been ordered by Allied Motors Ltd. in Bombay on 19 August 1936. It was for Maharaja Sir Shri Rajaram Chhitrapati of Kolhapur (30 July 1897 to 26 November 1940); he had succeeded on 21 May 1922. Other RRs I know he owned were Silver Ghosts 45EU, a Victor Broom landaulette and 95EU, a Hooper cabriolet.

Photographs of the car were used in the 1937/38 Barker & Co. catalogue (they called it a tourer!) - see post 180 in this thread; it was shipped to Bombay on the ss "Somali" on 24 July 1937. Photos of the car were used in the RR "Bulletin" in December 1937, and March, September and December 1938. In the first issue the car was being used by the incoming Governor of Bombay (Sir Roger Lumley), and in the March 1938 issue (reproduced below) it is being used by the retiring Governor, Lord Bradbourne, arriving at Ballard Pier. It is interesting to note that the Governors had to borrow this car; the Phantom III for the Governor's use had not yet arrived (3CP100 - it's story will be brought to you soon!).

The car was sent back to England in 1971; who had used it for the 30 years between the death of the Maharaja and its export is not know. It carried English registration 5942DH when it first arrived.

In March 1975 the car was sold at auction in Geneva, and was for sale by dealers Coys of London in May that year, for $US38,000. It was for sale by Tom Barrett in Arizona for $550,000 in October 1989, and then for $600,000 a year later, with its mileage only 13,000. In January 1991 it did not sell at auction for $475,000, and it did not sell at an auction in Tokyo in 1992. It was then for sale for $395,000 in 1993. The Blackhawk collection had it for sale for $275,000 in 1996 (after it sold at auction in August 1995 for $136,000), when it was bought by an American businessman. He went bankrupt owing money to the US Treasury and they auctioned it in March 2000 for $165,000, by which time it had been repainted red and silver, with a red hood (and looks awful!). It is currently owned in Florida.

The second photo below shows the car soon after it arrived in the UK in 1971.

[karlosdeville]

As always, thanks Steve for your insightful posts and pictures.

Here are a few Silver Wraith's from Harit. Unfortunately no numbers available.

Today something about RR Silver Wraiths in India, not a list but only limited info to share.
Refer link 485 of V16. Sorry V16, but a small correction. This Wraith was at one time somewhere in MP. From there it went to Kolkata and then came to Mumbai along with a SS Jaguar by train in the 1980's. Both the cars were unloaded at a railway goods yard probably near Byculla and sent to their respective owners. The Wraith went to Dubash. Unfortunately something was wrong and the car was allowed to deteriorate. Then she went to Chor Bazar, from there to Jaipur and is still in Jaipur, not exported.
Attached are some more pics of Silver Wraiths.
BMY4944 as she was in previous ownership. Appears more stately than today.



MRF 9800: Ihis is probably Pranlal's, but can be subject to correction. In the thread there is a picture where she appears to be in Delhi. Some years ago Pranlal was the President or chairman of some business organisation like FICCI or CII when he shifted base to Delhi for a few years. He did take some cars with him, perhaps that would explain his Rolls (if it was his) being in Delhi.



MMF 2525 At a rally in Mumbai. Also Pranlal's?



No Number (scratched out) supposedly ex-Kolhapur, hopefully now rescued.



MMF 4878: This is the ex-Chatterjee car. From these pics one can see that she is on her way to her former glory. And it has taken probably 8 to 9 years. There are pics in the thread showing the car at Navneet and again in Pune. It was the determination of the owner whom I have unfortunately never met, and Solanki to get her on the road. One day I landed up at Solanki's place near Alibag and spotted this Rolls lying inside, the number plates were removed and the radiator grill masked over. The car was stripped bare. Solanki would not reveal who the owner was, just that it had come for restoration. So curiosity led me to find out the story. It seems that the car was opened up at a renowned dealership of the three pointed star make, then nothing was done. The whole basket case was transferred to Solanki who put it all together. Then she was sent to Navneet for painting in their booth. There they determined that some work must still be done on the body and improved on the body work. Checker plates (like BEST bus flooring) were used on the running boards and the front panel below the radiator. As she was getting botched up, she came back to Solanki who repaired the restoration. Finally, the car was completed with all the interiors finished and sent to Pune for painting in a backing oven. The photo attached is of her on a petrol pump. Since the car was now seemingly ready I went back to Solanki and had a closer look. Interiors were fabulously restored, woodwork was very nice but the car was in primer as now she was yet to be painted. Only one exterior blemish was to be seen, the rear mudguards did not have a beading. Perhaps these will be fitted later after painting.





So much for Silver Wraiths.

[park-ward]

BMY-4944 is #WVA28 a Park-Ward saloon to design 13. It is now red & cream (MMF-2525) now with H. Cama.
MRF-9800 is #WVA56, a Hooper limousine to design 8034, now with P. Bhogilal.
MMF-4878 is #WVA20, a Park-Ward limousine to design 17.
The non-registered car is difficult to id. It's an early model because it has Wilmot-Breeden bumpers.
Cheers
Andre Blaize