[travancore]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Also regarding Silver Ghost #2154 1912 Barker Tourer "Taj Mahal" Maharajah of Nabha. I have these 2 photos and at some point the windscreen has been changed, I think these are the same car but when was the screen changed?
Attachment 44135
Photos from team-bhp and a rally photo not sure where.

I think there is someone who can help....

Julian, the second photo I believe was taken at the Lord Mayor's Rally, London 2006/7 (best I can remember) - posted by Henk, Post # 290. Park-Ward had also posted an enlargable picture (thanks Andre for responding to a request to see the "Taj Mahal" name plate more clearly) - Post # 311.

The first photo may be in "RR and the Indian Princes".

Looking at the pictures, the second winshield arrangement just seems to "sit" on top of the original cowl / scuttle. Maybe that it what the two "pegs" are for ??? On to the experts.

[shyml]

Originally Posted by park-ward

Hi Travancore,
L.Dalton used the order ledgers to write his books, whereas Bernard King & Nick Whitaker used the guarantee books (delivery ledgers). The RR rec's show "Khan of Kalat" re. 76WJ, may be Sardar Sahib Prithipal Singh cancelled his order, which was not unusual. There are 2 Prithipal Singhs in my records, one was Sardar Sahib, Raja of Talicheri in the 1920's-1930's and the other one was the famous olympic hockey player born 1932, probably the one who owned a 1932 PII Barker sdv in 1966. But I'm still struggling with the Indian nobility titles and geography and I see no connection between Talicheri, Kalat & Sitapur which seem to be very far from each other.

I feel I am a self styled authority on this car as I have been vistfully looking at it since I was in class 7 and the owner was a friend of my late father. This car was parked in his front porch behind his petrol pump on Lawrence road Lahore. I tried to buy this car when I came back from my studies in America in 1981 till it was sold to a gentlemen in Islamabad in 2005. During these years I had the honour to have had long sittings with the elusive owner Mr. Jamal Khan, whose mother Begum Abad Kahn was once acting governor of the Punjab. He was a fine looking gentlemen of the old school and a very good talker.The following short history of the car is from what was gathered from him.

This car was ordered by the Maharaja of Kashmir to impress an English woman of less than enviable repute in London circles, whom he was seeing while on visit to London. The car was ordered for her in her choice of colour, i.e pastel rose pink and pastel lemon yellow . By the time the car was ready the Maharaja had left for India. It was delivered to Bombay but by that time the Maharajah had moved on to other ladies in life and refused to accept the car. The Bombay RR dealership kept this car for more than a few years and it was paraded at the horse racing track near Bombay, covering more than 5500 miles. The Driver would bring it on a slow pace near the grand stands and put the car in top gear, slip out from behind the steering wheel and walk along besides it to show the power and torque of the engine. It was advertised ( Pl see the Book "Automobiles of the Maharajas " by Sharada Dwivedi & Mavendra Singh Barwani page 212) for Rs 36000. The unsellable car, perhaps because of the colour or its association with that particular lady, was then bought by the visiting Khan of Kalat, Balauchistan who saw it at the race course. The price paid is not on record but would have been much less than the asking price. The car was taken by train to Quetta and used there by the Khan till he grew too fat to fit behind the steering wheel. It was stored in his garage when a Police officer in the service of Balauchistan Government, Pakistan bought it from him probably in mid 1960's. The car was painted white sometime during this period. This officer was also from a distinguished family and the car was kept under wraps in Nowshera Pakistan till his son in law Mr. Jamal Abad Khan took it to East Pakistan , now Bangla Desh, to his Tea estate in Chittagong. The car was used there and was serviced by Dinfa Garage. In 1970 the family evacuated from East Pakistan and brought the car to Pakistan. It was only used once on a trip to Murree hill station, and perhaps once on a trip to Islamabad, but mostly kept under covers at Lahore. Unusual features were a White steering wheel, Grebel spot lamp on left side, very fine front fenders, scuttle vents, bezel wind clock and a different rear shape to the fabric roof. The rear fenders are its weakest link and were changed from original probably to make them more effective in reducing splashed dirt and rain in East Pakistan days. The left side foot board also carried leather gun cases which made somene remark that it was a hunting buggey. The very fine cover for the collapsed roof is not present anymore. The car now has a later addition luggage carrier made reportedly for the family's much talked about trip to Murree to see their daughter who was a student at the convent school there. After the death of the owner, his son agreed to sell the car to me but before the deal could be concluded he died in a tragic gun accident. Further negotiations with the family were not fruitful as a very high sum was being asked for it. That ended my life long quest for it. The car was finally sold and now resides in Islamabad. It has been given a coat of paint in yellow . Ristes, a well known parts and restoration garage of merit in UK visited to evaluate the car and its picture appears in one of their advertisements in the RREC advertiser. A good picture of the car with Late Mr Jamal behind the wheel and top up. appears in Lawrence Daltons "The Derby Phantoms".


I have pictures of the car taken in 1999 in Lahore which I will scan and post.

Amer Ahmad, Lahore, Pakistan

[travancore]

I am taking the liberty of including these pictures posted by Dominator in the Vintage Classic & Rallies Thread (#197). Is this one we have seen before ?

[DKG]

When I first joined TBHP there were no marque specific threads covering the major legends of the automotive world. What started off as an honest sincere attempt to cover these cars in India, thanks to the collaborative efforts of too many people to list here, has now become without a doubt in my mind a major resource of information on cars that came to India.

What makes this forum so special is that it reaches far beyond the limited scope of expensive books published for the few who can afford them. I have no doubt that more people will learn about Rolls Royces in India here on TBHP than ever chancing on books written by noted historians. The power of the internet makes it all the more pertinent that we ensure the information listed here is as comprehensive and educational as possible.

I consider Steve Stuckley's posts on the PIII's in India the finest examples of how information should be shared through these forums. In each post he has traced the life of the car during production to the coachbuild, special features ordered, the original owner and details of shipment etc.

I am now delighted to learn from Julian that we have amidst us an emminent personality of the RR world internationally, namely Park Ward (avatar name). I am told not only is Park Ward one of the most respected historians known for his identification of countless cars but also the main driving force behind the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost club.

That Park Ward has time and again stepped in to share bits and pieces of information is testimony to the fact that this thread has come to be a significant resource of material on Rolls Royces in India.

Unfortunately unlike the real world people's reputations do not precede them in the virtual world, moreso when their real names are withheld.

I sincerely hope that all doubts, clarifications are cleared transparently as we now have not one but too eminent historians in our midst.

Thanks Park Ward and Steve for the time you have spent sharing information here and I am sure many here would join me in appreciating the wealth of information and experience you bring here.

Looking forward to learning tons more from you gentlemen

Originally Posted by travancore

Is this one we have seen before ?

The black and white Phantom is in Hyderabad and if I recall correctly is the one that was to be shipped out by its previous owner and was confiscated by customs. It was subsequently purchased by a family friend and remains in Hyderabad for the past decade or so. Remember that story?

[Steve Stuckey]

In post 455 I gave a history of this car, which went to India as a Trials car (for Allied Motors in Bombay) and then in February 1938 it was sold to the Commander-in-Chief of the British Army in India.

These two photos (from The Rolls-Royce Bulletin of December 1937 and September 1938) show the car being used in demonstration work. In the second photo it is next to 3BU134, the Maharaja of Kolhapur's tourer.

Enjoy. And thanks to all those who have posted compliments about what I have shared with you about these Phantom IIIs. As you will have guessed, I have a passion for these cars, and research on them is a great pleasure for me. I appreciate those who have shared their information with me in return.

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Steve Stuckey

In post 455 I gave a history of this car, which went to India as a Trials car (for Allied Motors in Bombay) and then in February 1938 it was sold to the Commander-in-Chief of the British Army in India.

Thanks for the pictures. Just to clarify, you had posted this in post # 445, not 455.

[park-ward]

Hello Julian,
I don't know how to add a photo to a reply so everyone will have to get back to the white Silver Ghost reg'd C-4047 in post #735. He who told you it was #60588 was fooled by the reg'n number which would be #60588 if it were a UK number C4047, but it is a New Zealand number C-4047. This car is actually chassis #60714, with a Gladiator body. It was found in 1952 in a UK scrapyard by current owner Adrian Garrett, the missing parts were located and the car was soon reborn. There's an article about it in RREC B159 page 10.

The Taj Mahal was restored by its current owner but I don't know when the windsrcreen was changed (this is of no particular importance between you and me ;o) I can ask the owner if you badly need the info.

I'd like to thank Amer for the detailed history of 76WJ. It clears up a confusion in my records. And I'll take an inquisitive look at the new limo posted by Travancore

[travancore]

Originally Posted by DKG

The black and white Phantom is in Hyderabad and if I recall correctly is the one that was to be shipped out by its previous owner and was confiscated by customs. It was subsequently purchased by a family friend and remains in Hyderabad for the past decade or so. Remember that story?

Hi DKG, could you please help us out with the details.....Phantom (II ?), year and Chassis # ? The owner can remain anonymous if so wished. Thanks!

[travancore]

Originally Posted by park-ward

I'd like to thank Amer for the detailed history of 76WJ. It clears up a confusion in my records.

Shyml, thanks a million for sharing the colourful history of this car.

Looks like Dalton may have a few facts wrong in the Derby Phantoms. The writeup next to the picture in my edition (looks like 1st Ed, 1991) says:

" Originally supplied to Sardar Singh Prithipal Singh of India and still in India in 1974, this open touring body by Hooper, body No. 7320, is mounted on 76WJ"

Well, looks like we stand corrected. Kudos

[karlosdeville]

Some more pictures of what appears to be the Kolhapur PIII.

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Some more pictures of what appears to be the Kolhapur PIII.

I presume they put the hood up when they bring on the water cannons and tear gas

Thanks Park Ward for sorting out the Silver Ghost mysteries.

Regarding the Dominator/Travencore post, Does anyone know if this PII is an ex-Baroda car?

[DKG]

Originally Posted by travancore

Hi DKG, could you please help us out with the details.....Phantom (II ?), year and Chassis # ? The owner can remain anonymous if so wished. Thanks!

Will try to get the number for you. The car originally had some problem with the engine and interestingly the present owner managed to get hold of another engine. The mechanic who worked on this RR was a virtual genious and someone I learnt a lot from. He rebuilt the engine using the best of parts from both units. The last I saw the car it would start on a quarter turn of the handle.

This same mechanic prided himself on tuning cars where they would start with a swipe of the advance retard lever.

[DKG]

Guys take a closer look at this Rolls. I really find it hard to accept its an original body. This car looks like a joke. Notice the beltline and those horrid chrome plates on the side!!

[travancore]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Some more pictures of what appears to be the Kolhapur PIII.

The registration "5942DH" certainly matches the Kohlapur car (3BU134). Thanks Karlos.....any rear end views from the same source / rally you could post ?

[travancore]

Originally Posted by DKG

Guys take a closer look at this Rolls. I really find it hard to accept its an original body. This car looks like a joke. Notice the beltline and those horrid chrome plates on the side!!

Attachment 44563

Hi DKG, sure you meant no harm, but we please need to be neutral......after all like the saying goes "beauty lies....."
Let us all be greatful these cars, in whatever form are still around - thanks to the efforts of a few (including yourself)
I am afraid people will stop contributing if we are too candid with our observations.