Classic Rolls Royces in India

travancore · 30th June 2008, 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Stuckey

Hi
I am new to this forum, and have been put on to it by my mate Andre Blaize in France ("ParkWard"). I am the PIII historian, living in Australia and the author of the PIII articles that appeared in the Aus club magazine "Praeclarum" (see items 145 and 248 in this thread). Steve Stuckey (phantom3)

Welcome aboard Steve! Appreciate very much the info on Indian P III's in Praeclarum

travancore · 30th June 2008, 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Maybe we can trouble Park Ward for the royal history of 20/25 GAE3?
Perhaps we can club together and offer them Rs.7050....

GAE3 is an ex-Baroda car from everything I have seen (this includes a well known RR expert; and magazine articles)

Julian UK · 30th June 2008, 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by travancore

GAE3 is an ex-Baroda car from everything I have seen (this includes a well known RR expert; and magazine articles)

Thanks Travencore, I hope we can look forward to an avalanche of photos/info of all the India PIIIs from Steve! I'm in the process of obtaining better photos of 3BU106 and 3CP76, it will take some time though.

Steve Stuckey · 30th June 2008, 10:12

After 25 years research on PIIIs I think I can pretty safely say that what follows is the total of all Phantom IIIs that have been in India/Pakistan (but I have also learned never to say never). I will post a separate message about each car with lots more detail, and pictures.

3AZ47 - Hooper limousine; Viceroy Marquess of Linlithgow
3AZ178 - 1937 Thrupp & Maberly drophead coupe (second body); to Maharaja of Darbhanga, Feb 1938
3AZ198 - Hooper limousine; RR Trials (demonstrator) with Allied Motors Ltd; sold Feb 1938 to Sir Richard Cassels, C-in-C British Army in India
3AX87 - Barker saloon with division (armoured windscreen); Nawab of Bahawalpur
3AX147 - Gurney Nutting saloon with division; Maharaja of Indore
3AX201 - Hooper limousine; Maharaja Gaekwar of Baroda
3BU50 - Thrupp & Maberly landaulette; Maharaja of Darbhanga
3BU76 - Barker sedanca de ville; Maharaja of Jaipur
3BU82 - Hooper sedanca de ville; Dowager Maharani of Nabha
3BU86 - Thrupp & Maberly drophead coupe; Nawab of Bhopal
3BU102 - Hooper limousine; Maharaja of Jodhpur
3BU106 - Kellner limousine; Maharani Chima Bai II of Baroda
3BU120 - Windovers limousine; Max Van der Linde, London; to India 1964
3BU134 - Barker tourer; Maharaja of Kolhapur
3BT75 - Windovers 6-light saloon; Maharaja of Udaipur
3BT127 - Hooper limousine; A C Robertson, Scotland; in India 1950s to 1976
3BT181 - Barker cabriolet; Ruling Chief of Keonjhar State
3CP76 - Thrupp & Maberly limousine; J N Mookerjee, Calcutta
3CP100 - Hooper limousine; Sir Roger Lumley, Governor of Bombay
3CP112 - Windovers saloon; Crown Prince Pratap Singh of Baroda
3CP116 - Windovers cabriolet; Crown Prince Berar of Hyderabad
3CM37 - Park Ward saloon; Maharaja of Kotah
3DL26 - Thrupp & Maberly cabriolet; Maharaja of Parla Kimedi
3DL90 - Park Ward saloon with division; Allied Motors Ltd. Trials, Bombay (arrived Bombay end of 1938, not sold and shipped back to London 3 August 1939; sold to Isaac Agnew, Northern Ireland in 1942)
3DL96 - Park Ward tourer; Maharaja of Morvi
3DL200 - Park Ward drophead coupe; ordered by Indian Government as a birthday gift to King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan; arrived Karachi 25 January 1940, sent to Kabul by truck June 1940

Another PIII with Indian connections was 3BU198, a Windovers sedanca de ville purchased by the Maharaja of Rajpipla and used at his estate in Windsor, England; it has never been to India.

I know my good friend Park-Ward (Andre Blaize) says that 3DL90 and 3DL200 are not strictly Indian PIIIs, but they were there long enough to warrant inclusion, in my humble opinion!

Julian UK · 1st July 2008, 03:53

Thanks Steve, your expertise on the India PIIIs will be very welcome indeed.
We are have a large void of photos of many of the cars.

karlosdeville · 1st July 2008, 09:07

A friend of mine took this picture for me when he visited a well known painting and restoration facility in Pune. I assume its a Silver Wraith/Silver Dawn. Unless it turns out to be an Austin Princess or thereabouts. Can anybody confirm?

Alvis · 1st July 2008, 10:26

Excellenmt archiving Steve!

3 DL 200 sat for nearly six months in Karachi before being transported to Kabul, I think someone wanted to keep the present for themselves!!

Also 3AX87 would be the only armoured P III ?

DKG · 1st July 2008, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Stuckey

3DL26 - Thrupp & Maberly cabriolet; Maharaja of Parla Kimedi

Steve would you know if this car has survived? Any pictures of this car?

travancore · 1st July 2008, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKG

Steve would you know if this car has survived? Any pictures of this car?

DKG.....don't know if this car has survived. There is a picture on post # 287 in this thread.

Julian UK · 2nd July 2008, 00:02

I'm posting a photo from post #51 by Sat, there's also a photo in "The Automobiles of the Maharajahs, also a clarification by Park Ward in post #289 and I 've got this more recent photo, not sure from where but it looks like it survived. Are they all the same car.....? The quarter light is missing from the later car otherwise it looks identical. In our present company of world experts I have learnt to make no assumptions......

Over to Park Ward and Steve?

Classic Rolls Royces in India-3dl26-1938-thrupp-maberly-cabriolet-parlakamedi.jpg

Steve Stuckey · 2nd July 2008, 07:54

Julian
These are the same car - re the front quarter windows: they were on the car when new, but not any more. The car was back in the UK by 1968 and is now owned in Maine, USA.

And to Alvis re post 412: to the best of my knowledge 3AX87 with its bullet-proof windscreen was the only PIII with any sort of armouring from new.

DKG · 2nd July 2008, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by travancore

DKG.....don't know if this car has survived. There is a picture on post # 287 in this thread.

Thanks, that's a lovely Rolls. I wonder how many PIII's were convertible coupe's?

Steve Stuckey · 2nd July 2008, 12:31

This is the first of the short histories of PIIIs that went to India/Pakistan.

3AZ47 was sent off test from the Derby factory on 6 June 1936 (one of the first production PIIIs); it had engine Z24B and was set up for use in India with a maximum of 7 passengers but no luggage.
The chassis was delivered to Hooper & Co on 8 June. They built a very tall limousine on the chassis, to design 6419, and body number 8594; the side panels on the bonnet were 1.5 inches taller than standard, to match the very tall body. The car was in dark blue with orange picking out lines, and coronets to the rear doors. The upholstery was in dark blue leather with two sets of loose beige covers; the woodwork was in solid figured walnut. The body cost 725 pounds, and the complete car 2130 pounds.
The car had been ordered on 20 November 1935 by the India Store Department in London for use of the new Viceroy. It was completed on 21 July 1936 and shipped to Bombay on the ss "Bhutan" on 24 July.
The new Viceroy was Victor Alexander John Hope, the Marquess of Linlithgow (24 Sept 1887 - 5 Jan 1952) who had succeeded as 2nd Marquess in 1908. He was 6 foot 7 inches tall (hence the car's really tall body which also had to accommodate his plumed hat!). He had commanded the (Indian) Border Armoured Car Company between 1920 and 1926 (RR armoured cars I wonder?) He was Viceroy 18 April 1936 to 1 October 1943 when he returned to England and became Chairman of the Midland Bank.
In 1954 the car was owned by W H Rooksby in Bombay. In the 1950s the car was returned to Hooper in London where the roofline was lowered, making the car look a bit out of proportion; it was painted grey. It's now in the Bhogilal collection.
The photos show the car in Simla with its chauffeur (from the RREC archives in UK) and the car just after amendment by Hooper (from the Science Museum in London).
There'll be something similar about the other 25 PIIIs in India, plus the Maharaja Rajpipla's car kept in England.

Julian UK · 2nd July 2008, 15:20

Thank you for this Steve, do you know when the car returned to India after having its roofline lowered? I think it looked better before the roof was lowered.....
Do you know when the new edition of the Complete Classics book on PII/PIII will be available again?
If you cover 3AZ178 next I was wondering if you have a photo of its original body.......?

DKG · 2nd July 2008, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian UK

I think it looked better before the roof was lowered.....

Ha! that's relatively speaking Sir Julian. To me it looks ugly pre and post chop.

The PIII that looked impressive was the Darbhanga car now with Mr. Sanghi. To me it looked more impressive than even the Baroda car also in his collection. Does anyone have side profile pictures of the Darbhanga PIII?

30th June 2008, 10:12	#409
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 138 Thanked: 264 Times	Phantom IIIs in India After 25 years research on PIIIs I think I can pretty safely say that what follows is the total of all Phantom IIIs that have been in India/Pakistan (but I have also learned never to say never). I will post a separate message about each car with lots more detail, and pictures. 3AZ47 - Hooper limousine; Viceroy Marquess of Linlithgow 3AZ178 - 1937 Thrupp & Maberly drophead coupe (second body); to Maharaja of Darbhanga, Feb 1938 3AZ198 - Hooper limousine; RR Trials (demonstrator) with Allied Motors Ltd; sold Feb 1938 to Sir Richard Cassels, C-in-C British Army in India 3AX87 - Barker saloon with division (armoured windscreen); Nawab of Bahawalpur 3AX147 - Gurney Nutting saloon with division; Maharaja of Indore 3AX201 - Hooper limousine; Maharaja Gaekwar of Baroda 3BU50 - Thrupp & Maberly landaulette; Maharaja of Darbhanga 3BU76 - Barker sedanca de ville; Maharaja of Jaipur 3BU82 - Hooper sedanca de ville; Dowager Maharani of Nabha 3BU86 - Thrupp & Maberly drophead coupe; Nawab of Bhopal 3BU102 - Hooper limousine; Maharaja of Jodhpur 3BU106 - Kellner limousine; Maharani Chima Bai II of Baroda 3BU120 - Windovers limousine; Max Van der Linde, London; to India 1964 3BU134 - Barker tourer; Maharaja of Kolhapur 3BT75 - Windovers 6-light saloon; Maharaja of Udaipur 3BT127 - Hooper limousine; A C Robertson, Scotland; in India 1950s to 1976 3BT181 - Barker cabriolet; Ruling Chief of Keonjhar State 3CP76 - Thrupp & Maberly limousine; J N Mookerjee, Calcutta 3CP100 - Hooper limousine; Sir Roger Lumley, Governor of Bombay 3CP112 - Windovers saloon; Crown Prince Pratap Singh of Baroda 3CP116 - Windovers cabriolet; Crown Prince Berar of Hyderabad 3CM37 - Park Ward saloon; Maharaja of Kotah 3DL26 - Thrupp & Maberly cabriolet; Maharaja of Parla Kimedi 3DL90 - Park Ward saloon with division; Allied Motors Ltd. Trials, Bombay (arrived Bombay end of 1938, not sold and shipped back to London 3 August 1939; sold to Isaac Agnew, Northern Ireland in 1942) 3DL96 - Park Ward tourer; Maharaja of Morvi 3DL200 - Park Ward drophead coupe; ordered by Indian Government as a birthday gift to King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan; arrived Karachi 25 January 1940, sent to Kabul by truck June 1940 Another PIII with Indian connections was 3BU198, a Windovers sedanca de ville purchased by the Maharaja of Rajpipla and used at his estate in Windsor, England; it has never been to India. I know my good friend Park-Ward (Andre Blaize) says that 3DL90 and 3DL200 are not strictly Indian PIIIs, but they were there long enough to warrant inclusion, in my humble opinion!
	(2) Thanks

1st July 2008, 03:53	#410
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 254 Times	Thanks Steve, your expertise on the India PIIIs will be very welcome indeed. We are have a large void of photos of many of the cars.
	() Thanks

1st July 2008, 09:07	#411
karlosdeville Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 11,976 Thanked: 18,275 Times View My Garage	A friend of mine took this picture for me when he visited a well known painting and restoration facility in Pune. I assume its a Silver Wraith/Silver Dawn. Unless it turns out to be an Austin Princess or thereabouts. Can anybody confirm? Attached Thumbnails
	() Thanks

1st July 2008, 10:26	#412
Alvis BHPian Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Abu Dhabi and Karachi Posts: 131 Thanked: 58 Times	Excellenmt archiving Steve! 3 DL 200 sat for nearly six months in Karachi before being transported to Kabul, I think someone wanted to keep the present for themselves!! Also 3AX87 would be the only armoured P III ?
	() Thanks

2nd July 2008, 00:02	#415
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 254 Times	I'm posting a photo from post #51 by Sat, there's also a photo in "The Automobiles of the Maharajahs, also a clarification by Park Ward in post #289 and I 've got this more recent photo, not sure from where but it looks like it survived. Are they all the same car.....? The quarter light is missing from the later car otherwise it looks identical. In our present company of world experts I have learnt to make no assumptions...... Over to Park Ward and Steve? Last edited by Julian UK : 2nd July 2008 at 00:05.
	(1) Thanks

2nd July 2008, 07:54	#416
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 138 Thanked: 264 Times	Phantom IIIs Julian These are the same car - re the front quarter windows: they were on the car when new, but not any more. The car was back in the UK by 1968 and is now owned in Maine, USA. And to Alvis re post 412: to the best of my knowledge 3AX87 with its bullet-proof windscreen was the only PIII with any sort of armouring from new.
	(1) Thanks

2nd July 2008, 12:31	#418
Steve Stuckey BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 138 Thanked: 264 Times	Phantom III 3AZ47 This is the first of the short histories of PIIIs that went to India/Pakistan. 3AZ47 was sent off test from the Derby factory on 6 June 1936 (one of the first production PIIIs); it had engine Z24B and was set up for use in India with a maximum of 7 passengers but no luggage. The chassis was delivered to Hooper & Co on 8 June. They built a very tall limousine on the chassis, to design 6419, and body number 8594; the side panels on the bonnet were 1.5 inches taller than standard, to match the very tall body. The car was in dark blue with orange picking out lines, and coronets to the rear doors. The upholstery was in dark blue leather with two sets of loose beige covers; the woodwork was in solid figured walnut. The body cost 725 pounds, and the complete car 2130 pounds. The car had been ordered on 20 November 1935 by the India Store Department in London for use of the new Viceroy. It was completed on 21 July 1936 and shipped to Bombay on the ss "Bhutan" on 24 July. The new Viceroy was Victor Alexander John Hope, the Marquess of Linlithgow (24 Sept 1887 - 5 Jan 1952) who had succeeded as 2nd Marquess in 1908. He was 6 foot 7 inches tall (hence the car's really tall body which also had to accommodate his plumed hat!). He had commanded the (Indian) Border Armoured Car Company between 1920 and 1926 (RR armoured cars I wonder?) He was Viceroy 18 April 1936 to 1 October 1943 when he returned to England and became Chairman of the Midland Bank. In 1954 the car was owned by W H Rooksby in Bombay. In the 1950s the car was returned to Hooper in London where the roofline was lowered, making the car look a bit out of proportion; it was painted grey. It's now in the Bhogilal collection. The photos show the car in Simla with its chauffeur (from the RREC archives in UK) and the car just after amendment by Hooper (from the Science Museum in London). There'll be something similar about the other 25 PIIIs in India, plus the Maharaja Rajpipla's car kept in England. Attached Thumbnails
	(2) Thanks

2nd July 2008, 15:20	#419
Julian UK BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 709 Thanked: 254 Times	Thank you for this Steve, do you know when the car returned to India after having its roofline lowered? I think it looked better before the roof was lowered..... Do you know when the new edition of the Complete Classics book on PII/PIII will be available again? If you cover 3AZ178 next I was wondering if you have a photo of its original body.......? Last edited by Julian UK : 2nd July 2008 at 15:22.
	() Thanks