[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by adneo

While i love the iVtec for its free revving nature and the gearbox as well, the skinny tires and the light build quality dont go a long way in reassuring confidence in the enthusiast. Moreover a lighter car always doesnt translate into better dynamics since one would have make up for the weight loss into the engineering of the suspensions so that any uncalled for motion of the vehicle can be countered accordingly.

I loved the 1 & 2nd Gen Hondas! Absolutely drivers machines, but after that they started playing the numbers game and now a City has become more of a status symbol than a machine yearned for by the hardcore enthusiast.

If you really want to feel the difference , please drive the Linea TJet and the City back to back on a nice twisty section. Provided you do it with an open mind i dont think it will take much to make you feel the difference between the Linea's HPS, Ride dynamics and braking performance.

Agreed that Linea is superior in dynamics department. Steering feedback in City especially is no match for Linea. But compared to Vento, it's not too far off.

Tyres can be changed. Nothing permanent about them. I think most enthusiasts change them as soon as they step out of showroom.

City has a stiff suspension and mix that with a light body, you get a nice handling machine. So, I can't agree that City is boring to drive.

And I never said that Linea is not FTD. I merely meant that City is FTD too. "Too" is the word here.

[skandyhere]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

Before we can even talk about the brands, what are the factors that makes a car FTD?

Few I can think of:

- Chassis: This, I think, is the most important. A rigid but light and stable chassis is the basic ingredient of all FTD cars. Without a good chassis, nothing else will work.
- Steering: 2 factors here. Steering accuracy and steering feel. Most cars in the price bracket mentioned by OP has no feel. But anyways, I think, steering feel is overrated. An accurate steering, which can make the car go where it is pointed, is more important for FTD cars.
- Engine: A good, fast revving engine with good power is a classic ingredient in a FTD car. But in Indian conditions, a low revving engine with loads of torque low down in the rev range can be equally rewarding.
- Suspension: As a general rule, stiffer the better for handling and softer the better for ride. So for a FTD car, a careful balance between the two is needed. Also suspension travel is another factor. Longer the travel, the more the body roll. Eg: Many reviewers complained about the boat like rolling of Abarth Punto.

One more factor, Transmission: MT or AT is based on individual preference. There are pros and cons for both. Also pros and cons for different types of ATs. Also, among MTs, some are notoriously bad.

These are all I can think of. Others please add any other fundamental factor which I have missed.

One could add a few other crucial aspects:
- Weight distribution, and the associated 'chuckability' of the car
- Good ergonomics: Not to be seen as a tangential practicality' issue in a discussion on FTD cars, because poor ergonomics can very quickly take the fun away from driving.
- Pedal positioning: Some cars have such god awful pedal positioning that it's impossible to heel-toe with regular shoes. I struggled with the Ecosport, and it's ironic that Ford, of all the car makers, makes this error.
- Gearshift experience: Assuming a manual transmission, it's interesting how many variables there are that could either enrich or dull out the whole gearshift experience - clutch travel, clutch feel, how positive gear shifts are, and shifter length.
- Engine & drivetrain: Think power and torque characteristics over the rev range, and the gear ratios. Although I'd think it's rarely SO bad that you can't compensate for it by adjusting your driving style, these make a big difference when they're just perfect.

'Fun' being as subjective as it is, there's rarely much room for objective discussion. It changes from person to person, varies by speed, varies by whether it's a high speed autobahn or tight twisties, and so much more. It's just fun to be talking about what's fun; nothing serious or absolute about it!

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by skandyhere

- Pedal positioning: Some cars have such god awful pedal positioning that it's impossible to heel-toe with regular shoes. I struggled with the Ecosport, and it's ironic that Ford, of all the car makers, makes this error.

What use do you put heel and toe to in a front wheel drive car? Just asking.

[skandyhere]

Originally Posted by mayankk

What use do you put heel and toe to in a front wheel drive car? Just asking.

Heel-toe has its virtues regardless of whether it's a FWD or a RWD car. Although an FWD car doesn't suffer the problem of the rear stepping out of line because of a front weight transfer in a big downshift, the other two problems with not heel-toeing exist just the same - passenger discomfort due to the unpleasant jolt, and the significant but needless stress on every component in the driveline. I won't even go into the upsetting of balance, assuming that one is not driving an Ecosport at the limit of its grip on a public road.

Besides, the main use of heel toe being the ability to downshift into the powerband prior to entering a corner, it is useful in any car of any configuration. Front or rear wheel drive, it lets you comfortably carry momentum and accelerate out of the corner in the perfect gear for the application.

Then, personally, heel-toe shifting is an integral part of the driving experience for me. To quote someone that put it nicely, "the only cars that give you a true sense of involvement in the driving experience, with the satisfaction of playing the transmission and pedals like perfecting an instrument, is one with three pedals and a manual gearbox." Personally. I know not everyone will agree.

[rageshgr]

Originally Posted by mayankk

What use do you put heel and toe to in a front wheel drive car? Just asking.

Considering he uses heel and toe to blip the throttle and rev match during downshifting before entering a corner, etc, technique should be as effective in a FWD as it is, on a RWD.

[adneo]

Originally Posted by mayankk

What use do you put heel and toe to in a front wheel drive car? Just asking.

The heel & toe down shift has got multiple advantages even in a daily drive scenario.

1. It reduces the stress on entire transmission chain, keeping everything at the right spot at the right time.
2. Rev matching greatly reduces the wear and tear of the Synchronizer.
3. Reduces the jolts, otherwise felt during quick downshifts.
4. From the enthusiasts point of view provides the seamless feel of smooth sustained control while keeping the car in the power band.
5. It changes the experience by leaps and bounds when driving through fast corners.

There was a poll somewhere in the forum about the organ type pedal vs the floating type, considering my experience with quite a few European cars and Indian ones as well, i think the organ type pedal is best suited for heel toe gear shifts. However sadly even in Europe that configuration seems to be a premium proposition.

I think the only way it can be done easily in a floating pedal config is if the manufacturers keep the build the accelerator pedal of the right length , such so that a diagonal foot's heel can reach out to the extreme tip of the A pedal.

However i am yet to see configuration which matches that, considering i have fairly big feet (Size 11). Most of the the times i feel the spacing is not right.

[santosh911]

Originally Posted by adneo

When i read about your thoughts on the Abarth Punto somewhere i knew Narain was the source of that feeling. No offence but i think Autocar track days at least for the cars meant for the general public are biased and paid up for.
He said the current gen Honda City was stonker with good dynamics !!! Come on anyone having driven fast laps in the current gen City would beg to differ more so if they have driven the same course in a Linea TJet, Punto Abarth or a Vento TSi/TDi.
No doubt the City has a great engine, but the dynamics??? Come on.

I think what Narain was trying to say is that its a good track car because of the rev happy I-VTEC engine and the quick steering. It's light too so changes direction quite fast. The big limitation is the skinny tyres but that impacts the grip not necessarily the handling. The City is sharp to turn in to corners and well balanced for a sedan. The big negative is that its easy to break traction and because the feisty engine overcomes the tyre grip quite easily.

On a separate note, I would caution against accusing anyone of 'paid' reviews. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view doesn't mean he is corrupt. A bit more maturity in making such serious accusations is important for a classy, mature and well-informed forum like ours.

[adneo]

Originally Posted by santosh911

On a separate note, I would caution against accusing anyone of 'paid' reviews. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view doesn't mean he is corrupt. A bit more maturity in making such serious accusations is important for a classy, mature and well-informed forum like ours.

I wont even get into that discussion about my view of the autocar reviews. Incase you are interested there are n number of discussion across the internet about the nature of magazine reviews these days. In case you are forgetting that was one of the reasons why people trust the Team BHP reviews more than anything.

About your comment of accusations, i guess that you missed the more mature part of my comment wherein i had clearly mentioned that those were my personal opinion only and not intended to offend anyone.


Btw i wonder how a mature driver would dial in the exact amount of turn-in using a steering wheel which is vague so that he exactly maintains the perfect race line.

[santosh911]

Originally Posted by adneo

I wont even get into that discussion about my view of the autocar reviews. Incase you are interested there are n number of discussion across the internet about the nature of magazine reviews these days. In case you are forgetting that was one of the reasons why people trust the Team BHP reviews more than anything.

About your comment of accusations, i guess that you missed the more mature part of my comment wherein i had clearly mentioned that those were my personal opinion only and not intended to offend anyone.


Btw i wonder how a mature driver would dial in the exact amount of turn-in using a steering wheel which is vague so that he exactly maintains the perfect race line.

Sorry to say I own a Honda City and don't think the steering is vague. It's pretty quick off-center in fact. That's my opinion and I concur with Narain. That's all.

[deerhunter]

FTD has different meanings for different people. For some people, a car with loads of oversteer which drifts in every corner is a FTD car. For others, a car with very accurate steering and good chassis balance is a FTD car.

But all the cars OP has mentioned are actually neutral handling cars. Only, maybe, Linea is a little bit above the competition. If you consider VW Vento as a FTD car, then every other car in that segment (except Verna?) is FTD. Vento has great high speed stability, but is not particularly more FTD than others in the segment.

[The AG 6167]

I am out in the market for a new set of wheels since 2015 December with a decent budget of Rs.12 lakhs and no car seems to have the "driver's car" magic. Though there are cars that are fast, some of them are fun to drive as well, but they all somehow lack the magic feel of a hard-core driver's car. Cars today seem to be more about what features do they have, how comfortable are they, what sort of infotainment do they carry, etc. Where are the cars for those who don't mind driving a metal shell on four wheels with just a steering wheel which plants a smile on the face each time you are behind the wheel right through each day of the ownership period?

[AYP]

Originally Posted by The AG 6167

I am out in the market for a new set of wheels since 2015 December with a decent budget of Rs.12 lakhs and no car seems to have the "driver's car" magic. Though there are cars that are fast, some of them are fun to drive as well, but they all somehow lack the magic feel of a hard-core driver's car. Cars today seem to be more about what features do they have, how comfortable are they, what sort of infotainment do they carry, etc. Where are the cars for those who don't mind driving a metal shell on four wheels with just a steering wheel which plants a smile on the face each time you are behind the wheel right through each day of the ownership period?

The Fiat Linea is still out there. And so is the Punto and the Abarth Punto. You can look for the Ford Fiesta in the used car market if you are not interested in the Fiats.

[avimal]

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[The AG 6167]

The Linea, punto and punto Abarth are disappointing too, though I would say they are better than the swift but they really aren't true drivers cars. I found them to be relatively softly sprung to what a fiat should be. like the fiat palio 1.6 which my family drove for 10 years, was brilliant in every sense but offlate it seems fiat is trying to make a maruti (trying to make cars that sell more, away from its core values).

The Fiesta 1.6 s I agree with you is absolutely fantastic but I am really not in for used cars currently and the topic I am trying to drive here is that no car currently on sale in the new car market is as accomplished as a driver's car of the past in the given price range

The Cedia had a good engine Avimal but somehow the suspension was uninspiring because the rear end would get a little floaty on S bends and uneven surfaces. it was more of a fast car than a driver's car in my opinion. That said, again its not on the new car market currently, so the topic continues, that new cars are just not upto the mark of a driver's car.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by The AG 6167

I am out in the market for a new set of wheels since 2015 December with a decent budget of Rs.12 lakhs

Cars that come close to your title are...
1. Skoda Rapid
2. VW Ameo/Polo/Ameo
3. Punto clan

This is all I can think off; or else you've the 60% down used market where you can bargain a lot & get an old Beemer or Merc at good price.