[Light]

Hey everyone,

I'm in need of your advise choosing a performance sedan/hatch. I cannot find any that satisfies all my requirements within my budget. I'm open to buying used or performing slight modifications like ECU remap / intake / exhaust / tire upgrades (provided the vehicle is reliable enough to risk voiding manufacturer warranty).

Requirements:
Power: ~200 BHP (0-100 in ~7s).
Transmission: AT (DCT) preferred, MT is acceptable
Safety: 2 Airbag + ABS + ESP (required) + 4WD(optional)
Reliability/Maintenance: 5 years (or more) manufacturer warranty, <25K INR per year to maintain, no known power/drivetrain issues.
Ground clearance: 150mm or more.

Budget:
<10 lakhs (preferred)
Up to 15 lakhs is acceptable.

I currently drive a borrowed Skoda Superb 1.8 TSI/DSG. I would like similar (or better &#128578 performance without the luxury or reliability issues.

Thank you!

[suhaas307]

Your only options for the budget, as I see it, are used Lauras, specifically the 1.8 TSI variants.

Some people on the forum also managed to get a Polo GTI for cheap as VW had been handing out huge discounts. See if you can find any.

The Abarth Punto is also an option, but you will have to do some serious homework to locate one that suits you.

You could also find the previous Generation Mini Cooper S (R56) for around 20 lakh or less, but I wouldn't recommend it because the 1.6 Peugeot engines that power the cars are not exactly reliable and prone to turbo failure after about 50k on the clock.

I was aware of an 2011-12 Audi AT 2.0T that was on sale recently for a little under 20 lakh. Let me see if it's still on sale. But again, I'm not certain that it would be a stress-free experience in terms of service etc.

See if you can find a Jetta 1.4 TSI. You could remap the hell out of it for more power.

Can't really think of any other options.

All the best!

[Maverick1977]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Your only options for the budget, as I see it, are used Lauras, specifically the 1.8 TSI variants.

Considering that the Budget has been mentioned as <10L, the only option is the Laura TSi. However this will not meet his requirement on another 2 counts:
1. The reliable TSi's are manual and he has specifically mentioned AT as one of the requirements.
2. Finding an automatic TSi will be tough, but if he manages to get one, the DQ200 is already running at max torque, hence any further modification to bump up the power to 200 will result in high probability of failure.

The only option is to consider used Octavia's (2013-14 models) or wait for a few more years till the vRS's start entering the pre-owned market, but again am not sure if that will meet the maintenance criteria.

The old BMW's, Audi's and Mercedes might meet his other criteria but will definitely require more maintenance.

Honestly, I think this is every Indians dream car - BIG on HP, automatic transmission (DCT of course), small on price, maintenance etc. Doubt if such a dream will be fulfilled any time in the near future.

[lamborghini]

Your requirements are going to be very very tough to meet - primarily because you want quick, mod-friendly, and reliable that's well within reach!

IMO, your best bet is to find a lovingly maintained Laura TSi / vRS with the manual gearbox (because the 1.8TSi AT gets the famously unreliable 7 speed DSG which cannot be tuned for much more power) - pick it up around INR 5L, do a few basic mods, and be happy. You will still have around INR 5L left over for any maintenance related needs.

If you're open to diesels - you can look for a Jetta / Laura 2.0 TDi DSG. A member here had upgraded his turbo to the larger ones used in other VW cars + a remap and a couple other goodies. Net net - it was a seriously quick car, but of course with any serious after market modifications, reliability is always a question mark.

I am not recommending pre-owned BMWs etc. as they will be difficult to maintain, even though the E90 & E60 fall into your budget. Anything goes wrong, and it will definitely hurt!

In new cars:

1) Polo GT TSi - within budget, small & nimble, adequately powerful and there are lots of things you can do. However - it isn't going to be Superb 1.8 TSi quick but will plaster a smile on your face post a few mods (at the risk of warranty of course)!

2) Ford Figo Diesel S - powerful diesel, light body, neutral dynamics, stiffened suspension, and easy to maintain. A remap will add a little more power though and you could be looking at 0-100 in 8.5 seconds which is remarkable for an Indian hatch. In fact, this would be my number 1 choice!

3) Punto Abarth - though my pick will be the Figo due to it's better ergonimics, easier to service, and live with.

[Light]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Your only options for the budget, as I see it, are used Lauras, specifically the 1.8 TSI variants.

Some people on the forum also managed to get a Polo GTI for cheap as VW had been handing out huge discounts. See if you can find any.

Lots of Laura 1.8 TSI/MT in the used car market and at cheap prices! I'm reluctant to get a Skoda due to reliability issues (& expensive repairs) but keeping it as an option for now although I can't find if it has ESP or not.

The Polo GTI is unfortunately out of my budget and I would definitely avoid the DQ200 7 speed DSG it comes with. One of the reasons I'm planning to move away from the Superb (it had a DSG/DQ200 failure recently and was very expensive and time consuming to replace the mechatronics unit).

Originally Posted by lamborghini

Your requirements are going to be very very tough to meet - primarily because you want quick, mod-friendly, and reliable that's well within reach!

IMO, your best bet is to find a lovingly maintained Laura TSi / vRS with the manual gearbox (because the 1.8TSi AT gets the famously unreliable 7 speed DSG which cannot be tuned for much more power) - pick it up around INR 5L, do a few basic mods, and be happy. You will still have around INR 5L left over for any maintenance related needs.

In new cars:

1) Polo GT TSi -

2) Ford Figo Diesel S -

Ah, the Laura 1.8 TSI/MT. Does it have any expensive repairs after 50K km? I'm reluctant to consider Skoda due to reliability issues and maintenance/repair costs.

Polo GT TSI has the DQ200 gearbox and it failed on me once already in the Superb. Don't want to try my luck again.

Not interested in diesels, I love a free revving petrol too much

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Abarth Punto is also an option, but you will have to do some serious homework to locate one that suits you.

Originally Posted by lamborghini

3) Punto Abarth - though my pick will be the Figo due to it's better ergonimics, easier to service, and live with.

The Abarth Punto fits my requirements except ESP (and I found one near me with a wolf moto remap and claimed 195 bhp). Not sure about reliability or long term maintenance with Fiat. I'm afraid the way things are going, they might shut down Indian operations like Chevrolet. I plan to use this car for a very long time.

Thank you suhaas307 & lamborghini for your suggestions. It looks like if I can do without ESP, I might have a few options. The thing is, twice I've had loss of control situations without ESP. Once when the Superb's wheel speed sensor was faulty and it was raining and the other in a Celerio AMT which had bad tires (and no ESP). Both times, I was alert and was able to correct the situation but I don't want to risk it on a bad day when I'm not alert.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by Light

Ah, the Laura 1.8 TSI/MT. Does it have any expensive repairs after 50K km? I'm reluctant to consider Skoda due to reliability issues and maintenance/repair costs.

The Abarth Punto fits my requirements except ESP (and I found one near me with a wolf moto remap and claimed 195 bhp). Not sure about reliability or long term maintenance with Fiat. I'm afraid the way things are going, they might shut down Indian operations like Chevrolet. I plan to use this car for a very long time.

You mean ABS & Traction control?
I doubt any of these cars have it - maybe the Laura, which you can find out over a test drive.
Honestly - I know what you feel because the same happened with my 328i (wheel speed sensor failing), but that's where experience has to come in.

As for the Laura - the car in general is quite sturdy and fairly reliable especially with the manual gearbox. At the price you get it - you can easily pay for a new clutch, suspension, and turbo if ever needed!
What could go wrong mainly are the sensors (like the wheel speed / abs sensor, airbag sensor, etc.), AC (more to do with European cars in general) but otherwise the car is fairly solid.
You want to look around for a well maintained 2012/2013 model which would have most of these niggles ironed out, with suspension and engine in decent shape so you don't need to spend on them.

A good reference is Akshay1234's thread on his vRS which he owned for around 5 years and 75-80Kkm as it could give you an idea on the reliability.

In the earlier Octavia 1.8 TPi (before the Laura TSi), there were troubles with the turbo but I don't recall hearing many scary experiences with the 1.8 TSi engine per-se (Passat, A4, Superb).

Maintenance will be similar to your current Superb in terms of servicing and parts + manual reliability.

Regarding the Punto - I don't see Fiat leaving India any time soon. They've hung around for long enough and half the skeptics who avoided buying a Fiat because of this fear would have probably upgraded from whatever car they bought instead .
However, I won't be surprised if they start focusing more on the Jeep line-up which is doing fairly decently.

[Light]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

You mean ABS & Traction control?
I doubt any of these cars have it - maybe the Laura, which you can find out over a test drive.

The thread here with a feature list shows ESP only for the Laura L&K while the rest has ABS/TCS as standard. It seems L&K was only available as a Diesel AT.

As I understand it, TCS is for slip correction when accelerating in a straight line (it only needs the wheel speed sensor and if one wheel is moving too fast for it to lose traction, it breaks it) and ESP is for slip correction when the vehicle slides sideways (corrects loss of traction causing vehicle to slide out on slippery roads, while cornering or even with a blown tire; it has a steering sensor and gyros additionally to make the vehicle go where you're pointing the steering!).

It appears my only choice for a vehicle with ESP would be a Polo GT TSI (stock + 7 year VW warranty) or mod it and hope the DSG doesn't fail. Would've been nice to get a stock GTI for 15 lakhs

[agambhandari]

What about a 2010-12 age E90 320d? I don't have experience in maintaining an old bmw, perhaps other members such as lamborghini may chime in , but i believe the maintenance and repair costs should stay under 100k a year even with a few wear tear parts or even some failures. The car itself should be under 8-9 lacs.

But something to think would be the comfort level would be lesser than laura.

[ajmat]

Originally Posted by Light

Ah, the Laura 1.8 TSI/MT. Does it have any expensive repairs after 50K km? I'm reluctant to consider Skoda due to reliability issues and maintenance/repair costs.

Polo GT TSI has the DQ200 gearbox and it failed on me once already in the Superb. Don't want to try my luck again


The Abarth Punto fits my requirements except ESP (and I found one near me with a wolf moto remap and claimed 195 bhp). Not sure about reliability or long term maintenance with Fiat. I'm afraid the way things are going, they might shut down Indian operations like Chevrolet. I plan to use this car for a very long time.

Lauras are reliable except for some like drinking oil initially- check AC compressor, front suspension and clutch wear

Polo TSI - Lamb dressed as mutton - far from GT - consider a Polo 1.6 secondhand, may be a little thirsty but better torque than the TSI

Fiat Abarth - Engine is tough and reliable - check the electrics

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Lauras are reliable except for some like drinking oil initially- check AC compressor, front suspension and clutch wear

Polo TSI - Lamb dressed as mutton - far from GT - consider a Polo 1.6 secondhand, may be a little thirsty but better torque than the TSI

Fiat Abarth - Engine is tough and reliable - check the electrics

Does the Polo 1.6 have the same engine that the current Vento 1.6 is having? I just came back from a drive and tried to rev the engine (1.6 MPI) but it failed to hold beyond 4000 RPM. Not sure what torque you talking about.

Abarth Punto is the best bet below 10 lakhs. Spares are readily available as of today, but I understand every fiat lovers dilemma. You won't regret the initial ownership atleast. Then it's just luck if Fiat survives in the country or not.

[greenhorn]

Methinks your expectations are too high.
You want the performance of a 25L german for <15L, and add reliability on top.

In the US, I recently bought a civic which probably would meet your requirements for less than the cost of a new ecosport ( a made in india one at that!)

In India i cannot DREAM of buying such a car. Once i return from the US, i might consider buying a used city. The civic will probably not even get into the entrance of the lane which goes another 300m into my home in Trivandrum.

In the Indian market, performance is extremely scarce. You could probably get something that offers you the luxury of the superb in 15L, maybe even under 10, but performance is hard to find, and reliable performance - good luck finding that, and reliable german performance on a budget?

I say come over to the diesel side. You have better options there. Starting with the figo tdci. Have you driven one? especially the sport?

[GTO]

Since you can go up to 15 lakhs, a used 320d is just perfect. Quick, fun & reliable. Also consider used Jettas & Octavias.

Lucky shot = call Mini / BMW dealers and see if anyone has a used previous-gen Cooper S. You'll be smiling in your sleep while owning one.

[rocksterraghu]

Reminds me of the fast, reliable and cheap equation. If you want the first two, the third can't co-exist with them; it's an either-or with cheap.

First the 1.2, if you need a powerful 200 BHP car under 15 lakh, a GT TSI will never work for you. There is no way you will live with that much power that the 1.2 makes even for the small hatch; remap, exhaust, everything considered.

Second the 1.4, a Punto Abarth or Octavia/Jetta 1.4 TSI also cannot be taken to the 200 BHP level unless you make serious modifications like turbo swap - which I do not see in your preferred modifications. Also, they are quite heavy so the 1.4 will always be a compromise. Believe me, once you drive a tuned 1.8 TSI after owning a 1.2 or 1.4, you WILL sell your car.

So, your choices are Laura TSI, Cruze, E90 320d/325i/330i - all of which are or can be taken to the 200 BHP mark. Now the Laura is manual (mostly), Cruze doesn't have a petrol variant and BMWs are ridiculously expensive to maintain should something go wrong - something will go wrong because they are 8-10 year olds that we are talking about. The same problem will continue even if you extend your budget and buy a used A3/A4 TFSI, plus the DSG risk.

Since you are ok with a manual, want low maintenance and good reliability, just buy a used Laura TSI, get the modifications done. It is a pretty reliable car, having owned both TSI and vRS I can tell you there is no better VFM in the performance segment. BHP per lakh is the highest, parts are relatively cheap, gearbox has no issues and you could even take it to much more than 200 BHP which isn't the case with the other options I have mentioned.

[IshaanIan]

Look at a used Kizashi manual. You can upgrade the internals or even turbo the thing reliably since the block and gearbox are rated to handle upwards of 500 horses. The sheer mechanical grip on offer blows the VAG competition out of the water. Stock brakes are also excellent. Tune the thing to eliminate lag in the dbw throttle system that has been put by the company to aid fuel efficiency. Car is reliable and can be tuned to the moon. Just open the bonnet and see how much space is available.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Look at a used Kizashi manual. You can upgrade the internals or even turbo the thing reliably since the block and gearbox are rated to handle upwards of 500 horses.

Unless you are a tuner or really close to one, this isn't an option for anyone. Personally, I wouldn't even consider it. The headaches are too many - quality of parts, labour, reliability etc. etc.

Not to forget, this is a discontinued CBU which will come with its own share of headaches.