[HereticHermit]

TLDR; The post is more of chin wagging about replacement car than trying to zero down a car model.

I have had 3 Santros in possession since 1999, first was bought and other two came second hand simply because I got them so cheap that it would be an insult to turn them down. I have been somewhat provided with Company vehicles with drivers so my last Santro of personal use has aged gracefully thought hardly used; but it is time to move on. What it means for me is that I am using a kind of car that hasn’t changed much for last 24 years and I am not in tune with the ‘latest and greatest’. So naturally I have a blank canvas in front of me and plethora of choices. But I am feeling bit overwhelmed at the number of disconcerting complaints or ‘expectations’ not met by many BHP members with one single major concern that modern cars tend to offer lot of technology but not very reliable.

While I am no luddite or against technology, but I am mindful that lot of noise about lack of electronic dimming OVRM and rear defogger is different from sensors that have mind of their own or a vehicle being built and passed on with substandard QC thereby impacting overall Sum Total experience of ownership.

I don’t have any bias or any favorites under consideration, but Hyundai seem to have their business sorted really well after Maruti. But I am overall leery about cars gone so much ‘assisted’ by tech that it may rob off the tactile feel we were so much used to during 90s’ and 00s’. It is probably impossible and unwise to turn down the helpful change is the way new cars are being driven but within the envelop I am looking for general pointers wrt what to avoid when buying new car now a days.

Going by my almost utilitarian ‘demands’ I am perfectly ok with a Citroën C3 turbo but I really want to hear what TBHPians have to say about other brands. All I am looking for is a ICE vehicle that is not sedan but something of an SUV/pseudo SUV having 4 cylinders, 1200 cc to 1600CC on turbo (not very convinced with 3 pot engines) a sorted suspension (don’t mind a harder setup, the Gypsy never bothered me as such), good if it has creature comforts but their absence is not deal breaker for me. I am no audiophile but if stock audio is just pants than I will invest a little money and live life. A sorted engine that doesn’t go to extreme of Toyota for long haul of 2 lakh kilometers or like (I find Toyotas to be generally uninspiring and insipid in stock trims) so I would like to have a spirited engine. I don’t mind spending money on parts/repairs if they are not as rare as hen’s tooth. I recall selling my RD350 one fine day because while I was willing to pay Rs 1500 for a pair of piston rings, I was not ok putting up with dealer acting like a god doing favor to me even when he was charging 10 times the normal price.

One last very important thing that I am looking at is, which car is MOST mechanical as of today? Given my old school expectations the TBHP complaint box has successfully eroded any confidence I had in VW or alike brands in respective price range. I see no value in riding a thoroughbred Arab horse only when it is willing to go out, when a poor mule is simply available all the time. A simple, mechanical, dependable engine on a lonely highway makes far more sense to me than enviable stair some exotic turbo popper might get in South Delhi.

You may notice that I haven’t brought the safety concerns in discussions so far, not because it is least of concerns, but I have seen so many born idiot drivers in my life that now I know, most of time my own life is in my hands, I am going to squander away my life only when I am driving carelessly and without commonsense. Not to mix the fate with safety, those 8 airbags probably won’t save your life in a 1300Kg car when a full freight loaded trailer driven by a drunk slams full speed in your rear. That is fate. Commonsense karma might have saved your life if you had invested 20 seconds of SWOT for a parking spot when driving a Maruti Omni with zero safety.

Your thoughts gentleman.

[Jaggu]

Very interesting narrative but will be helpful if you can give a crisp summary of what you are looking for starting with...

- Budget ??
- Usage?? Kms Urban commute Vs Highways??
- SUV style I gather
- Simple and not over complicated electronics and more European / Raw feel to drive.
- Overall reliable and safe
- Space / Seating capacity??
- Decent set of features?

[DicKy]

Looks like most sub 20 lakh cars with a 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine mated to a manual transmission or torque convertor or CVT in the base or mid variant would work for you. So anything from a WagonR 1.2 to a Seltos/Grand Vitara/Creta base variants.

There are many gizmos and electronic stuffs going around, but I believe most cars under 20 lakhs (except hybrids and EVs) do not interfere with one's driving. The only thing unavoidable would be the beeping of the rear parking sensors, which are mandatory by law. Rest assured you can jump in most cars and drive it like a car from the 80s/90s, unless one has to fiddle with the touchscreen or it has keyless entry/exit, push button start, automatic climate control. But trust, these would take just one day to get used to.

The Citroen C3 or C3 Aircross would be a good one. It is designed based on the philosophy of easily repairable panels and parts. And it has a raw mechanical feel to it also. Another one that would give you the raw feel of the 90s would be the Jimny, if you are okay with the pricing.

[HereticHermit]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Very interesting narrative but will be helpful if you can give a crisp summary of what you are looking for starting with.

Originally Posted by DicKy

Looks like most sub 20 lakh cars with a 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine mated to a manual transmission or torque convertor or CVT in the base or mid variant would work for you. So anything from a WagonR 1.2 to a Seltos/Grand Vitara/Creta base variants.

My Bad @Jaggu, @Dickey I should have been more cohesive.
I am ok with under 16-17 Lakh budget. Prefer the SUV style simply because of ease of ingress and egress (54 yr old now). I have driver assistance and car when in office so this is purely a personal car. Mostly but twice a year long highway runs, say 6-8 thousand KM per year including hilly terrains, it wont run more than 300-400 Km in city even if I have to use it often, living in a two horse town, there is simply no space to let horses loose here. I am light traveler so not much fussed about space and ok with 5 seater+any boot. Despite being in a small town I do have Audi, Merc showrooms but at best the experience is very unprofessional and they don't do anything other than 'change parts' at your cost and private market/mechanics have not matured beyond being grease monkeys experimenting at your time and cost. The same culture drift down to Maruti level too. So it is important that irrespective of brand, engine is reliable and simple. Frankly I don't care about features over ease of mind but after all these years spent on field vehicles I cant see myself driving a Bolero.
I wont be looking at e-vehicles, only manual/stick shifts on IC. I am not sure if there are lot of choice in turbo engines up to 1500 CC in 4 cylinders. Hill Hold is nice to have but if I am cornered into having more tech, I wont have much option and submit to tech gods, which I am just trying to avoid.
I have not seen or test drove Jimny yet but from what I am reading, its frustratingly under powered engine is the biggest party popper for me.
C3 Aircoss is holding me back on being a 3 pot engine hence this thread for information about other brands/models.

[Jeroen]

What is a simple mechanical car? I have a 1982 Mercedes w123. It came factory equipped with an electronic ignition!

Any car these days is likely to have fuel injection and that means it will have an ECU and a bunch of sensors.

Again, even on my 1982 W123 the carburettor has some electrical systems!

My 1986 Alfa Romeo sports two computers, one for the ignition, one for the fuel injection.

And the lists goes on. There have been no real 100% mechanical cars made for a very long time, with the odd exception. You might end up with something like an ambassador, or similar.

It might be helpful if we had a better understanding what you would call a mechanical car. What electronic bits are allowed?

Jeroen

[bijims]

Considering your requirements for SUV body style, reliable engine, and gearbox, low maintenance, 4-cylinder, 1200cc to 1500cc, under 17 lakh budget, I would recommend the following:

1. Maruti Brezza
The Brezza comes with a tried and tested, 1.5L N.A. Petrol has been around for quite some time, considering your budget, you can get the top-end automatic too, it has a 6-seed torque converter and is one of the most reliable automatics too, if manuals are your thing, the manual ain't bad either, but it now misses out on the mild-hybrid functionality.

2. Honda Elevate
Hondas are known for their reliability and the Elevate MT would be a good choice considering your requirements, the tried and tested 1.5 NA IVTEC is a gem of an engine and would last you as long as you want it to. It is a no-nonsense car and suited for those who prefer a hassle-free ownership experience.

Both of the above options are reliable, fuss-free naturally aspirated models, with proven engines and good reliability, even their automatics are good choices. Moreover, they are based on safe platforms (earlier gen Brezza scored 4 stars in GNCAP, Elevate is based on the City and should score well in NCAP tests [assumed])

Although most cars nowadays are filled to the brim with the latest technology and features, the above are two examples of ones that have proven to be reliable nonetheless, I am not saying that turbo petrol, 3-cylinder engines, and DCTs are unreliable, but based on your preferences, I feel that the above two would cater to your needs the best.

Hope this helps!

[shankar.balan]

What would you say to a Toyota Urban Cruiser in that lovely shade of Electric Blue.
I think those are amongst the last lot of the old fashioned Combustion Engined cars.

[shancz]

I hear you, I was thinking of upgrading from 3 cylinders to four and seems like most of them are going to 3 cylinders as a "premium" option

Listing down your inputs :

- 16-17 Lakh budget
- SUV : ease of ingress and egress
- twice a year long highway runs, say 6-8 thousand KM per year including hilly terrains
- 5 seater+any boot.
- engine is reliable and simple, 4 cylinders
- manual/stick shifts on IC.engines up to 1500 CC in 4 cylinders.

Suggestions(not in order):

• KIA Seltos : 1.5 turbo 4 cylinder, gizmoed, check rear seat space
• Honda Elevate : 1.5 NA 4 cylinder, good reviews on ride and handling, check rear seat space
• Maruti Brezza : 1.5 NA 4 cylinder, does the job but might not be to your tastes
• Wait for the new gen Creta, should get the 1.5 turbo
  
• NEXA Fronx Delta+ 1.2 NA : wildcard, much lower than your budget and needs, but do give the 1.2 NA a try
• Mahindra XUV300/TurboSport : in case you end up looking at 3 cylinder turbos this might just cut it but do keep an eye out for the facelift, that should be interesting.

I would also suggest to pay special attention to the models/variants/trims as you might get inbuilt tech like auto start-stop on the Fronx Delta+ and AEB(Automatic Emergency Braking) on Elevate right from the V variant which might become irritating if you don't use it as they have to to be turned-off every time the car is started. I am not aware much about the Seltos so can't say much on that.

[46TheDoctor]

Your requirements make me suggest only one car to you, Honda Elevate top variant!

It should be reliable for 15-20 years at the least given your less running.

Get one in AT which adds tremendous convenience over MT. MT is definitely sportier than AT but you arent looking for that, so Covenience over Sportiness.

[drsingh]

Utilatarian reliability and hassle free ownership = Maruti Suzuki . All lxi/vxi models from the Arena/Nexa stable would do the job.As for ergonomics of getting in and out,consider the following:

1.Wagon R 1.2 (comfortable 4 seater)
2.Ertiga
3.Brezza
4.Fronx

Consider the Bolero Neo/Scorpio Classic if you want to jump from the pseudo SUV class to the SUV class. These two are the most 'mechanical' cars available under 20 lakhs for that old school minimalist feel. Ergonomics and ride quality are a totally different from the Maruti options though.

Maruti Suzuki NA 1.2/1.5 are excellent options for old school minimalist requirements

As recommended above by others,Honda Elevate seems to be the most refined option in the pseudo SUV category.The 1.5 vtec NA is excellent. Interior Space is less than Ertiga/XL6 though.

[IshaanIan]

The S-Cross 1.5 would have been the perfect car for you but alas it is discontinued. That said, the Elevate makes a strong case for itself with the 1.5 vtec motor and what look like extremely comfortable seats (haven’t test driven one yet but the pictures have had me wondering about those seats) also the 1.2 K series Fronx should do you well if you feel like the Elevate is too big or too expensive.

[youknowitbetter]

Good set of requirements, which holds true for lot of ppl (although in some cases where the owner has a driver driving the car at all times and don't care for gizmos, but are looking for a reliable and comfortable car). Given your requirement, you should consider lower to mid variants of the cars (so that the gizmo bit is not too much since you don't care for it). Considering the running, petrol seems to be only option in which case Mahindra and Tata are pretty much ruled out. Since you have already ruled out VW/Skoda, options are pretty much limited to Honda, Maruti, Hyundai and Kia. Hyundai and Kia though good brands have an overkill for gimzos. May I suggest confining the search to Brezza, lower variant of Grand Vitara and Elevate. Nissan, Renault and C3 are bit of a gamble in terms of the respective companies continuing their operations in India from a long term 7 to 10 year perspective.

[ss11011988]

Hi HereticHermit,

Considering your requirements and your preference towards sub CSUV / CSUV form factor, may I suggest the following options :

Honda Elevate MT - Mechanically sorted car. Has the features you need and nothing else. 1.5L IVtec motor is a gem, and is best enjoyed with the slick shifting 6 speed box. Don't need to worry about reliability. Lacks the mid-range punch of Turbo petrols.

Maruti Vitara Brezza - Proven mechanicals, though not as exciting / rev happy as the 1.5L I-Vtec. Design might not be to your taste either. Peace of mind due to the excellent ASS experience from MS. Lacks the mid-range punch of Turbo petrols.

Mahindra XUV300 TurboSport - I know a facelift is around the corner, but do give this car a try. The mStallion motor is a silent beast, and the way it reaches silly speeds is something to be experienced. ASS experience can be a hit or miss. Well built, no compromise on safety either. You may love / hate the design, especially the rear. Might not be as reliable as a Naturally aspirated motor.

Wild card entries :

Entry level variants of Scorpio-N / XUV700 - Especially the petrol variants. 2.0L mStallion motor can be quite frugal when driven sensibly. ASS can be a hit / miss. No compromise on safety. Gives you that go-anywhere attitude and confidence.

MS Fronx 1.2 MT - Sorted and proven powertrain. Good space management and ergonomics. Extremely frugal as well. Excellent ASS experience. Questionable build quality and safety.

Mahindra Bolero Neo - Proper SUV against a sea of high-heeled hatchbacks posing as SUVs. Old school feel and robustness. 1.5L 3 cylinder diesel is extremely torquey. Might not be as sorted as the modern, urbane models on the ergonomics and features front. Mahindra knows a thing or two about diesels, so no worries on the reliability front. Has a charm of its own. Hit or miss ASS.

Hope this helps, cheers!

[SnakemanJohny]

Hello HereticHermit, you're my type of man !
I am 68, and would love the totally mechanical SUV without any electronics if it was still available, and legally possible to drive in India !

Within my limited experience, the old 'bobtail' Toyota Land Cruiser, Nissan Patrol (Jonga), Land Rover Defender, and of course the Willy's Jeep were the ultimate automobiles, missing only a few vital things like LSD or locking diffs.

i would suggest you get a Jonga remade from Bhatinda or some other place in Punjab or Rajasthan, adding only the luxuries or electronics you feel comfortable with. A Gypsy custom-made from Mayapuri, Delhi may also work for you.

These vehicles are available with full papers fro 15 years, plus parts & service assurance.

A truly mechanical BS6 vehicle is impossible to find, I think. Even the Jimny has more electronics than I would like !

[Small Bot]

Several members have said this before me. The most reliable and fuss free cars that you'd get to experience are generally the Naturally Aspirated offerings from Maruti Suzuki and Honda.
They are not going to scorch the tarmac, not even heat it in fact. But they will just last and last for years, as long as you drive sanely and do some regular and periodic maintenance.

The better suggestion would be to go for the lower variants of these Suzuki and Honda cars as they will have lesser gizmos and gimmicks that might fail. I'd even suggest to look at the variants which do not have Maruti Suzuki's mild hybrid, like the MT variants of the Brezza for instance. Lesser parts that can fail bodes well for you, long term.