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Old 12th March 2013, 18:53   #31
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Default Re: DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
In most cars including mine the EGR exhaust gases are almost always introduced after the throttle plate and the throttle body.This is done for the reason to keep the tbody clean, be it heated or not.

But what is introduced before the tbody (in some cars including mine) is crankcase gases by means of PCV valve, these gases may condense in the tbody when the conditions are right, but whether that is a cause of concern for me needs to be tested.

If it does happen then the solution for this is an oil-catch-can.



When the manufacturer builds a car they do it for the general public and whatever regulations that need to be met. If the tbody coolant was that important then the manufacturer would standardise the presence of it in all of their models.

If someone is of the kind that they believe manufacturer knows the best then its better not to fiddle with their cars. I don't believe that a car rolling out of the factory floor is as perfect as it gets, maybe its the perfect car for the masses but i see everything in it as a compromise.



So what explains this?
2007 MPFI Esteem doesn't have coolant running through the tbody but the earlier MPFI Esteem does? Same case with Alto.

And before i embarked on this i did a lot of reading and came across many posts like this which said manufacturer knows the best, and some saying the gains are too little to be noticed. There were also posts from people who have actually done this and found unexpected gains. Depends on the car too!
Case of semantics. When I say blow by gasses its the same as you call crank case. Crank case gasses consist of two main components: Oil vapor and exhaust gasses that get blown by the piston rings. Even on a brand new engine some exhaust gasses make it into the crank case. Nothing to worry about perse. However, it is the exhaust gasses that are the nasty ones when it comes to leaving carbon deposits on a relatively cold throtlle as it contains the carbon particles from the exhaust gasses.

Cars are designed for the masses with a very wide range of input parameters. The brutal truth is that most, if not all of us, fit into that framework perfectly. The way we drive our cars is nothing special.

Not to offend anybody but we are discussing some pretty run of the mill cars here. And each owner will probably match the manufacturers profile in terms of performance specification down to income bracket for 99.9999%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Aren't there two ways to it? Manufacturers got resources much more than the individuals to try out various combinations and to record them. That does not mean that the enthusiast in us should not try modifying anything. From the start of time, if everybody were running on stock cars, there won't be these much manufacturers themselves.

But if the manufacturer puts and removes a thing from their car, he knows the exact reason for that, even for a compromise. Need not be the case with an individual; on the other hand, if the enthusiast come to know better than the manufacturer, well and good.

I'll term this thread as a good initiative and we may achieve good results; but en route, the real challenge is to get to the bottom of why exactly the manufacturer put in and removed the item.
I don't disagree at all with trying things out. Always good to improve, if anything just to increase one's understanding. What I'm saying is that if you start modifying stuff without understanding what it is supposed to do in the first place you're not improving or optimizing at all. At best you're sub optimizing.

Only when you fully understand why the manufacturer put a heated TB in, can you start optimizing, improving. The rest is just trial and error and see what happens. I'm fine with that. It's just not the way I go about things.

It's not that difficult to really understand why a particular manufacturer uses a heated TB. For starters most OEM workshop manuals would probably explain! So you do need to do a bit more research than googling the "net". It's not that difficult to get in contact with the manufacturers R&D engineers. Sometimes they do hang out on these sort of forums as well.

But again, if you want to go ahead and bypass without understanding be my guest. All I'm saying I would do it differently. And yes, I have made various modifications to multiple cars I have owned. And unfortunately, no matter how I like to think I'm very special car-wise, I'm probably just one more in the masses of car owners.

Enjoy your car and modifications, optimized or sub-optimized. Just don't be to upset because you're not special but just another data point in the masses for the car manufacturers.

Bypassing doesn't change that.

Jeroen
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Old 12th March 2013, 19:27   #32
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Default Re: DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass

The short green arrow points to the PCV hose which vent crankcase pressure and gases into the manifold. It is post throttle body. The long green arrow is the breather hose.

Remove the pipes and see, if you don't see any gains put it back. Since the manifold is aluminium this TB alongwith the manifold is getting heated by the cylinder head. So to keep it cool insulating gaskets are also recommended. In my car the manifold is plastic so not much heat transfer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
EDIT: OT: Checked my G16B to have the coolant pipes running from the throttle body (marked red). But it has some additional pipes (marked green) running from the engine head to before and after the butterfly.
Attachment 1061787

You might say the difference is in semantics but there is a difference when you say EGR and PCV crankcase gases. Agreed that PCV crankcase gases will contain some amount of hydrocarbons and carbon alongwith oil mist but the quantity of carbon is not as much as in EGR. Both terms are not interchangeable. Both have similar constituents but neither are they the same nor is the proportion.

And just to clarify one more thing, i was incorrect when i said the PCV in my car vents before the throttle body. Infact it doesn't and it infacts vent directly into the manifold. So no crankcase gases are going into the tb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Case of semantics. When I say blow by gasses its the same as you call crank case. Crank case gasses consist of two main components: Oil vapor and exhaust gasses that get blown by the piston rings. Even on a brand new engine some exhaust gasses make it into the crank case. Nothing to worry about perse. However, it is the exhaust gasses that are the nasty ones when it comes to leaving carbon deposits on a relatively cold throtlle as it contains the carbon particles from the exhaust gasses.
Most of us here on TeamBHP own run off the mill cars and we do mods on these run off the mill underpowered cars hoping to extract a bit more from the engine.

Quote:
Not to offend anybody but we are discussing some pretty run of the mill cars here. And each owner will probably match the manufacturers profile in terms of performance specification down to income bracket for 99.9999%.
I'm not upset but i found your post is like just another post found on the net while i did my "googling" that said manufacturer knows best, unless you can answer the following and tell me how i'm sub optimizing when my engine tells me otherwise?

Quote:
I don't disagree at all with trying things out. Always good to improve, if anything just to increase one's understanding. What I'm saying is that if you start modifying stuff without understanding what it is supposed to do in the first place you're not improving or optimizing at all. At best you're sub optimizing.
I simply just can't understand why this particular manufacturer put a heated throttle body in some model years and then later removed it.
Quote:
Only when you fully understand why the manufacturer put a heated TB in, can you start optimizing, improving. The rest is just trial and error and see what happens. I'm fine with that. It's just not the way I go about things.
I'm waiting for the workshop manual for my car, i have placed an order with Maruti. But I do have the workshop manual of the Swift sold in UK (courtesy a fellow BHPian). This particular Swift for which the workshop manual is for does mention the coolant lines going into the throttle body but it doesn't say why its there for and whether it should be checked in case of any malfunction. So here the OEM workshop manual isn't explaining the reason why its kept there.

Once again i'm hoping that someone can tell me how i'm suboptimising and is not trying to tell me i should've stuck with what was dished out by the manufacturer since they know the best. When i did my "googling" found couple of instances when people who have done it said it did make a gain on the dyno. So far i didn't come across anyone doing this and saying it killed the performance. Yes i am enjoying the car, because for one it eliminated a flatspot which was prominent and two it is pulling better through the rev range.

Quote:
It's not that difficult to really understand why a particular manufacturer uses a heated TB. For starters most OEM workshop manuals would probably explain! So you do need to do a bit more research than googling the "net". It's not that difficult to get in contact with the manufacturers R&D engineers. Sometimes they do hang out on these sort of forums as well.

But again, if you want to go ahead and bypass without understanding be my guest. All I'm saying I would do it differently. And yes, I have made various modifications to multiple cars I have owned. And unfortunately, no matter how I like to think I'm very special car-wise, I'm probably just one more in the masses of car owners.

Enjoy your car and modifications, optimized or sub-optimized. Just don't be to upset because you're not special but just another data point in the masses for the car manufacturers.

Bypassing doesn't change that.

Jeroen

Last edited by Sankar : 12th March 2013 at 19:50.
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Old 13th March 2013, 10:39   #33
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Default Re: DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I'm not upset but i found your post is like just another post found on the net while i did my "googling" that said manufacturer knows best, unless you can answer the following and tell me how i'm sub optimizing when my engine tells me otherwise?
.
I can't tell you if you are sub optimizing or not, because like yourself, I don't have any specifics on why your car manufacturer choose to have a heated TB in the first place. If you believe the engines runs better with no visible short or long term negative side effects, good for you.

Jeroen
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Old 14th March 2013, 08:19   #34
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Default Re: DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I don't disagree at all with trying things out. Always good to improve, if anything just to increase one's understanding. What I'm saying is that if you start modifying stuff without understanding what it is supposed to do in the first place you're not improving or optimizing at all. At best you're sub optimizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I can't tell you if you are sub optimizing or not, because like yourself, I don't have any specifics on why your car manufacturer choose to have a heated TB in the first place. If you believe the engines runs better with no visible short or long term negative side effects, good for you.

Jeroen
Thanks, thats all i wanted to know.
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Old 12th June 2013, 22:12   #35
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Default Re: DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass

It looks like Maruti themselves has removed coolant circulation through the throttle body of the new petrol swifts rolling out of the factory. Nice

This is the picture of the throttle body of my friend's May 2013 Swift VXI. There is no coolant circulated through the throttle body of this Swift and there is no T on the main coolant pipe to divert the coolant to TB and there is no return pipe for the coolant from the TB. The inlet and outlet on the TB remains.

This was a surprise find since i was looking for something else in the engine bay.

2013 May Swift VXI - No Coolant through TB. No extra lines or T.
DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass-20130612_180105.jpg

2012 April Swift VXI - Coolant flows through TB (In this pic it has been bypassed)
DIY : Throttle Body - Coolant bypass-20130306_083029.jpg
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