[lapis_lazuli]

Dear forum mates, Bhpians

I have been somewhat vocal, and much more, concerned about the gradual (and some cases, unannounced) increase in the percentage of ethanol mixed in retail petrol. It has the potential to make the society, perhaps go a little more green, and also has to potential to damage cars not compliant with petrol with more than 10% ethanol.

I had asked a few questions, and I have received some replies. Not conclusive, but awaited. For sure, the government is "still doing tests" to understand the effects of E20. I had also asked if present dilutions >10% but less than 20%, that have been officially mandated, have adverse effects on cars and if public information is made available regarding the same. Surprisingly, the query has been routed to BPCL. Not any other nationalized or private fuel producers.

I will share more information as and when I receive it.

My request :



Reply received:




It is clear, there is some information even bureaucrats may not be knowing or sure of. It also feels like there may not be a very definitive answer. I will keep pursuing and let the government at least ensure availability of E10 for the millions of cars that are not >E10 compliant. We do not need a graveyard of cars damaged due to hasty and ill-implemented policies.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

Dear forum mates, Bhpians


I had asked a few questions, and I have received some replies. Not conclusive, but awaited. For sure, the government is "still doing tests" to understand the effects of E20. I had also asked if present dilutions >10% but less than 20%, that have been officially mandated, have adverse effects on cars and if public information is made available regarding the same. Surprisingly, the query has been routed to BPCL. Not any other nationalized or private fuel producers.

It is clear, there is some information even bureaucrats may not be knowing or sure of..

Thanks for going beyond conjectures we are all drawing on why the government is doing what it is doing. Let's hope we get to hear on whether this is well thought through or just someone's fantasy.

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

Dear forum mates, Bhpians

I have been somewhat vocal, and much more, concerned about the gradual (and some cases, unannounced) increase in the percentage of ethanol mixed in retail petrol. It has the potential to make the society, perhaps go a little more green, and also has to potential to damage cars not compliant with petrol with more than 10% ethanol.

I had asked a few questions, and I have received some replies. Not conclusive, but awaited. For sure, the government is "still doing tests" to understand the effects of E20. I had also asked if present dilutions >10% but less than 20%, that have been officially mandated, have adverse effects on cars and if public information is made available regarding the same. Surprisingly, the query has been routed to BPCL. Not any other nationalized or private fuel producers.

I will share more information as and when I receive it.

My request :

Attachment 2495811

Reply received:

Attachment 2495810


It is clear, there is some information even bureaucrats may not be knowing or sure of. It also feels like there may not be a very definitive answer. I will keep pursuing and let the government at least ensure availability of E10 for the millions of cars that are not >E10 compliant. We do not need a graveyard of cars damaged due to hasty and ill-implemented policies.

Kudos to you! I eagerly await further updates. I was just yesterday trying to seek out subject matter experts on a different thread to help file an RTI, and eventually a PIL. Absolutely fantastic to see someone has already filed an RTI.

[Shreyans_Jain]

I congratulate you for formally filing an RTI query regarding this entire E20 fiasco. What you have done is the proverbial “dhoti kholna”.

They are admitting that they have no conclusive data on what will happen to the millions of E10 rated cars, bikes and scooters when they are forced to ply on higher blends of ethanol. Yet, they have pushed through with their agenda. In my eyes, this is deliberate and wilful destruction of private property. Perhaps legal minds can tell us if a PIL can be filed against the forced sale of E12 and E15 in guise of normal petrol, in the light of this reply.

[BhayanaV]

If we have to file more RTI's, which all government departments/Institutes should we target?

[Altrozed]

Originally Posted by BhayanaV

If we have to file more RTI's, which all government departments/Institutes should we target?

MoRTH and Ministry of Oil and Gas.

[anjan_c2007]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

It is clear, there is some information even bureaucrats may not be knowing or sure of. It also feels like there may not be a very definitive answer. I will keep pursuing and let the government at least ensure availability of E10 for the millions of cars that are not >E10 compliant. We do not need a graveyard of cars damaged due to hasty and ill-implemented policies.

A great job being done by you ! All praises !
I believe your RTI query was sent to the CPIO of Union Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas. Its illogical for the CPIO to send it to only BPCL. All other oil marketing PSU's should have been approached by the CPIO for their respective replies. The private oil refiners and retailers are not covered under the RTI Act, though.

If the CPIO from the Petroleum and Natural Gas Ministry, is knocking the BPCL doors, in all likelihood he must be pretending ignorance of his Ministry's possession of the policy papers.

Ethanol blending was initiated at the behest of the Niti Aayog jointly with Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas and a 72 page document "road map for ethanol blending 2020-25" was submitted to the government in June 2021. But we all know how Mr Gadkari has been pushing for the 10%, now 20% and also 100 % blending. 100 % is the best option as those cars shall only drink ethanol from birth to death, without affecting our cars.

In the U.K., ethanol mixed fuel has been ushered with 10% blending (E-10), since 1st September 2021 with the option for customers to buy E-5 at fuel outlets. Their standard petrol has a 95 octane rating and 97-99 octane rated petrol is also optionally available. Our standard petrol has a 91 octane rating with the XP95 and XP100 (95 and 100 octane) optionally available at IOC outlets. Private retailers also retail high octane petrol as options.

The 95 octane fuel ensures better combustion and releases lesser pollutants. So if our government is committed to reduce pollution, its priority should be to also up the standard petrol's octane rating from 91 to 95 which requires massive investments. But they prefer to force the "clean air" agenda for compliance by the public, read vehicle owners, rather than they themselves walking the talk. And many of the hapless vehicle owners are now victims of the concoction and are made to pay for avoidable repairs and replacements of components.

[GeeTee TSI]

Excellent initiative! This is walking the talk by a bhpian

Can OEMs who maintain deliberate ambiguity on this matter, also be nudged to confirm warranty to be honoured? Alternatively, propose any retrofit to minimise damage based on the vintage of one's model

[supermax]

Excellent initiative, but I must point out that the fact that you raise multiple questions make it easier for them to walk away by pointing you towards others, and listing the status as 'disposed'. By the way, what is the current blending level? Is it E5 or E10? Most (all?) EU countries are currently on E10 and the cars here are rated E5/E10 by default. E85 fuel is available in select bunks and there are hybrid cars which are capable of automatically sensing the fuel type, with the possibility of filling up either E10 or E85 into the tank. The sensor then detects the fuel type, and switches to the correct burning settings. This bifuel tech might make it into India, as an alternative to E20, but only time will tell. The E85 is not considered a hit in Europe.

[Clown Prince]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

I congratulate you for formally filing an RTI query regarding this entire E20 fiasco. What you have done is the proverbial “dhoti kholna”.

They are admitting that they have no conclusive data on what will happen to the millions of E10 rated cars, bikes and scooters when they are forced to ply on higher blends of ethanol. Yet, they have pushed through with their agenda. In my eyes, this is deliberate and wilful destruction of private property. Perhaps legal minds can tell us if a PIL can be filed against the forced sale of E12 and E15 in guise of normal petrol, in the light of this reply.

I'm glad you are considering legal route but the chances of it succeeding are less despite us having the data and an apparent upper hand. Government or Authority will some excuse and Court will accept it and tell you it's for greater good of public or make you believe the same.
A good example is when the cases and RTIs were filed in relation to calculations of petrol price and its inclusion under GST. The SC gave an autonomous reply there. There's a high chance of getting similar reply in this case as well.

[NewUser123]

You are truly an informed, educated and righteous citizen of India. (Not that others aren’t, before I get flamed).

But the rightful step was taken by you and now I’m feeling dumb cos I didn’t think of it earlier.

Awesome and congratulations.

[Sen]

With that recent thread on octane ratings and stuff shared by Nomad SK, I was just panicking internally knowing that I'm looking at a painful revelation and a very real chance of engine and fuel delivery system damage if the fuel I'm filling ever goes past E10! (even high octane fuel isn't immune to this baloney)

With all the information we've learned about how this is basically a load of bull and isn't even that helpful to the environment given the sugarcane lobby and water requirements for the same, I was thinking of how best to understand the way forward and even preparing to ask these questions in a few days' time. Glad to see you've taken the step for what feels like each and every damn one of us looking at the incoming boulder rolling Indiana Jones style at us.

Looking forward to updates on this thread and even if a legal battle ensues from this joke of a direction our country and the fuel that is sold here is going in!

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

It is clear, there is some information even bureaucrats may not be knowing or sure of. It also feels like there may not be a very definitive answer. I will keep pursuing and let the government at least ensure availability of E10 for the millions of cars that are not >E10 compliant. We do not need a graveyard of cars damaged due to hasty and ill-implemented policies.

Hey, I find this thread extremely interesting. Just bumping it up to keep it relevant/alive.

Have you received any update? Can we help in any way?

[84.monsoon]

The right way to increase E20 adoption is to make both regular fuel and E20 available side by side and slap a fat import adjustment tax on the non-E20 fuel. When it becomes economically attractive, the consumer will automatically switch to the new fuel and demand that the car companies also make compatible engines. This is happened during the diesel craze 2010-2016 or so, consumers jumped ship to diesel at the prospect of saving 15% at the time of fuel up and gaining an additional 15% mileage. They could move even staunchly petrol car makers like Maruti to start singing Diesel's praises, in-license a diesel engine from Fiat and put in most of their cars, from hatchbacks to minivans.

[locusjag]

I know a family that is only just coming into its own financially. The father in the family is a government employee in a proper posting but his salary is way behind when compared to the private sector. They've had to put their kids through school and college. They've had to set aside money for home EMIs, marriage expenses etc. Naturally, their aspirations have been put on hold - chief of which is the aspiration to have a car in the family.

Now that their eldest offspring has begun working, the family asked me to look for a used car for them. Their budget is 6 lakhs, their preference is for petrol, they definitely want only an automatic transmission equipped car. I did send some links of used examples to them, but was forced to simultaneously explain the upcoming issues with E20 petrol, how we've been sold even E12 petrol at some petrol pumps and what it means to older petrol vehicles of today.

Sadly, their car hunt is at a full stop right now. No decent used diesel car is available below 6 lakhs and the whole Ethanol-petrol saga has spooked them. They see a new BS 6.2 car or an EV as necessary but financially unviable options. Their intent was to buy a car ASAP and start enjoying one more aspirational thing in life, but it's on hold. The dad is a few years away from retirement and he won't be able to secure a loan to buy a car with course of time. If his kids make it big in the coming years and buy a car for him later, it won't be a matter of pride to him as when he buys one on his own.

There are worse things in life than not being able to buy a car, for sure. But this is definitely something that could've infused a lot of happiness into that lovely family who have known only inadequacies and uncertainties in life so far while everyone else around them prospered financially for so long. My heart goes out to them.