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Old 1st February 2013, 11:09   #31
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

I am surprised to see BMW in bottom 10, i had an impression that BMW's were more reliable than Mercs. Looks like my understanding is either old or is incorrect.

Toyota, Honda topping is no surprise, there is a reason these cars command premium when it comes to used car market globally.
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Old 1st February 2013, 11:17   #32
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Default Re: Engine Reliability - BMW, Audi, VW among the least reliable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankjha1806 View Post
I am surprised to see BMW in bottom 10, i had an impression that BMW's were more reliable than Mercs.
After a decade of visiting German car workshops, I can tell you this:

- Merc's diesel engines are bullet-proof. Nothing ever goes wrong in the engines. The 4-cylinder diesels especially are known workhorses that can log 3 lakh kms easily. I hear of more issues with BMW diesels in India (e.g. turbo failure) than Merc.

- Merc's petrol engines struggle to run on Indian petrol and face a lot of issues. Even a little impurity gets to them and it takes hours for specialist German engineers to nail down on the real issue.

- While the diesel engines are reliable, Mercedes has a poor track record in every other area. Be it nasty electronics, air-conditioners, suspension components and shockingly fast-wearing rubber components. The wear & tear rate of Merc's rubber components (belts, bushes, engine mounts etc.) is TWICE that of Honda or Toyota.

BMW is indeed overall more reliable. But Merc has the edge when it comes to diesel engine durability.
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Old 1st February 2013, 11:54   #33
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

I for one refuse to accept this statement that is generalizing German cars as non reliable. I haven't owned any of these luxury marques (read Audi, BWM or Merc) but have owned a people's car named Opel Astra widely used in Germany, UK and Eastern Europe.

Let me share my experience with Opel Astra 1997 1.6 petrol with NZR engine. I bought this car in 2005 as a second owner and drove it till Aug 2012 and in all these years the Car NEVER broke down neither because of mechanical failure nor because of electronic failure. The electricals used in the Opel Astra were top notch and all the made by German companies. I know this as I would see each and every part in an Opel Astra and where it was made. The AC control on/off switch, central lock control box was made by Siemens AG and the alternator, fan motor, etc. was made by Bosch, even the AC cabin filter was made by some German company although I am unable to recollect the name, all 4 power windows worked like a charm(all one touch down and anti pinch), electronic knobs used to function as they should the combination switch, indicators, headlight, tail light didn't throw up any problem in those 7 yrs of ownership. The only problems I faced was when I fitted it with burglar alarm, the accessories guys messed up the electricals and the central lock went Kaput although fixed by them but never worked like it did before.

I only had the opportunity to fix the ac control switch while GM Opel was still active in 2005 and it worked like charm till 2012. I was forced to send the car to local garage since GM Opel ceased their operations in India. Agreed that the spare parts are expensive but they are excellent quality and will last for a very long time. My engine never had a problem until when sent for service one over enthusiastic electrician meddled with the fan switch and the engine started overheating resulting in changing numerous local relays until the problem was nailed. Also most of the electrical problems didn't arise from failure but because of natural factors like rats chewing away the wires to glory. The wires were so badly damaged that no matter the amount of fixing it never remained the same.

I guess I took the car to incompetent people that ruined it. The AC guys royally messed up the entire AC assembly. Also to my surprise most mechanics and garages refused to work on this car may be it was too complex for them. Believe me I currently own a Mitsubishi Lancer and it doesn't give me a feeling like sitting in a battle tank like Astra, neither it has the bottom end torque and train like pulling power of the beautiful Opel 1.6 NZR engine. I am not saying the survey might be biased but one cannot make a generalize statement like "Germans make the least reliable engines".

Last edited by navin_v8 : 1st February 2013 at 11:55. Reason: incomplete statement
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:24   #34
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I bought this car in 2005 as a second owner and drove it till Aug 2012 and in all these years the Car NEVER..
That pretty much answers itself. There was a time when automobiles were well designed and made to last, and also less complicated. These Opels belong to the last leg of those times.

If we look around, we can see many Opel Corsas which still look fresh without any effects of aging and people used to praise German engineering for that. But times change and cutting corners for that prized extra profit is the in-thing now. Also, the affects of half baked technology experiments are there, example being the merc debacle in the 2000s. No wonder even Germans end up in the con list these days.
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Old 1st February 2013, 14:40   #35
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

I totally aggre to what GTO said, that's the jist of the whole discussion.

The older merc are therefore more reliable - lesser electronics. Yes these are build like tank and is a known fact.

True that service life of japanese components is low but almost 99% of these components reach their stipulated life. Not the case with germans tough.
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Old 4th February 2013, 14:07   #36
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

I am surprised that Lexus engines are rated 6th overall in reliability compared to the second ranked Toyota. What happened there?!
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:48   #37
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Default List of best & worst engine makers (British)

Source: http://goaonwheels.com/auto-news/lis...-engine-makers

"British insurance agency Warranty Direct lists the most reliable engine manufacturers. Warranty Direct has compiled a list of how often insurance companies will step in and cover the repair costs for various engine damage."

Reliability best engine manufacturers
Car brand, percent errors (%) Risk of failure (1 of xx)
1) Honda 0.29% 1 of 344
2) Toyota 0.58% 1 of 171
3) Mercedes-Benz 0.84% 1 of 119
4) Volvo 0.90% 1 of 111
5) Jaguar 0.98% 1 of 103
6) Lexus 0.99% 1 of 101
7) Fiat 1.17% 1 of 85
8) Ford 1.25% 1 of 80
9) 1.32% Nissan 1 to 76
10) Land Rover 1.38% 1 of 72

Reliability worst engine manufacturers:
Car brand, percent errors (%) Risk of failure (1 of xx)
1) MG Rover 7.88% 1 of 13
2) Audi 3.71% 1 of 27
3) Mini 2.51% 1 of 40
4) Saab 2.49% 1 of 40
5) Vauxhall (Opel) 2.46% 1 of 41
6) Peugeot 2.26% 1 of 44
7) BMW 2.20% 1 of 45
8) Renault 2.13% 1 of 46
9) Volkswagen 1.91% 1 of 52
10) Mitsubishi 1.70% 1 of 59
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Old 19th February 2013, 10:36   #38
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Default Re: List of best & worst engine makers (British)

Wow! Now if only Tata were to learn from J&LR, there may be a opportunity to significantly improve on their reliability problems.
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Old 19th February 2013, 13:26   #39
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Default Re: Study : Germans make the least reliable engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by manishalive View Post
The older merc are therefore more reliable - lesser electronics. Yes these are build like tank and is a known fact.
.
Sorry, it's simply not true. The idea that electronics make cars unreliable compared to older cars is not true. I have owned many classic and many modern cars. Still own a MercedesW123 with no electronics and a Jaguar XJR that's is absolutely jam packed with every imaginable piece of electronic you can think of and then some. I'd be the first to agree that the W123 is built like a tank, but that doesn't mean it's more reliable than the XJR. Neither when new or now after thirty years.

But we must be aware we should never extrapolate our own experience to be relevant at a national or global level.


So lets look at it beyond personal experience and look at long term trends on large scale volumes of cars:
We just forget what sort of problems we had with those old cars when they were new. Over the course of the last thirty years, cars have become increasingly more reliable, period. We might take a look at what we call reliability. The way I look at it, it's how often a car leaves me stranded. Either it won't start or it breaks down during a trip to the point where I can't drive it anymore.

So therefor the table on the best and least reliability doesn't mean so much. To me reliability is about convenience. If my car develops a little problem, maybe a warning light on the dashboard, but it will drive me for another 1000 kilomters, that's fine. But if I break down, or wont start at all, that it is real problem and therefor a huge inconvenience.

Check with organisations that provide road side assistance and you will find that:

1) the number of call outs they get per car long term is coming down as a trend
2) older cars have more issues and break down more than new cars. That starts happening as soon as cars pass the 3-5 year mark.

There is always exceptions to the rule.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 19th February 2013 at 13:30. Reason: added a few things, corrected grammar
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