[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Almost everything that they use daily for the farming is subsidised

OT:

The whole subsidy list have benefited only the green revolution propelled wheat and to a certain extent rice cultivators. Cash crops and plantation crops gives steady income but the rest of the farmers still reel in India's infamous drought/debt cycle and unsteady prices.

Fertilizer prices have already gone up beyond the reach of the small farmer. And with the current government's de facto financial authority hell bent on removing workforce from the farmlands by NREGS(MNREGS) scheme, every passing day is only adding more misery to the farmer.

A free market and a free economy will ensure that it is a free for all in this poorly law-enforced country.

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by vinair

5) Only registered organizers to hold such events

There must be a mechanism for this

Additionally Organizers should be giving an Undertaking to bear any legal consequences arising out of the event . ( wrt necessary permissions ) . This will prevent a common participant getting tangled in to & suffer in action taken by Govt departments , if that happens at all .

Sudarshan

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Nothing towards any profession here, but some of the richest families of India are farmer families, then they diversified into other industries. Almost everything that they use daily for the farming is subsidised, subsidised diesel, subsidised or free power, heavily subsidised fertilizer, completely financed or heavily subsidised farm equipments, this is hurtful when many of those families can buy these at full price and agricultural income is completely tax free while i pay through my nose, one way i believe that we should do away with every kind of subsidy and make this a completely free economy, though personally i dont believe in doing off-roading and ignorant use of forest land.

Am going a bit OT but so has this post above. I think i as a son of a farmer has the right to reply.

1) Farmers are taxed above a particular land holding.
2) Famers pay for power for their houses. Full rates if you need to know.
3) Yes we get subsidized fuel and so do you. When i increase the rate of rice by a rupee who cries?
4) Majority on the country still depends on rain cycle and monsoon to cultivate their crop. Have you heard of years of no revenue? Yes we get that.
5) You have heard of loan waivers. Please read the fine print(Majority of the time if you have repayed the interest you do not qualify)
6) Farm sector is one good employer for the poor. If there is no profit the poorest of the poor will go hungry. Due to the real estate sector in the city and the govt money for doing nothing scheme (NREGA) we have to pay ridiculous amount of price to get our farms running on time.
7) You talk of a saturday and sunday off. My dad works 7 days a week so that me and my brother can get good education. Taking a day off will need a lot adjustments to be done.
8) Fertilizer prices are increasing like crazy, labor price is increasing but if my products price increase a rupee there is a hue and cry.
9) Free market is a good idea. Everything should come to your plate at the correct price. No correction and govt interference. Then we can be free and fair.

Cmon man no hard feelings but such sweeping generalization doesnt help anyone. You have your side of the story and here is mine. Sorry for going off topic but we are a long way away from Forest land now.

[shankar.balan]

Better get into the organized sector such as the new age games like Paintball, Track Days etc.
One can't just barge into someone else's property and create a mess. The same way I would condemn out of hand, anyone who tries his/ her hand at leisure off roaring in the designated Forest or Jungle land where there is a possibility of disturbance to wildlife.
There is nothing wrong with the sport, but let it be held in a socially and environmentally responsible manner such as how it done outside of India in the developed countries.
We in India do not have the luxury of the "learning curve" because of the fast dwindling resources and wildlife. As responsible, educated, intelligent citizens and enthusiastic motorists, the least we can do is to be disciplined and act responsibly.

[Jerrycan]

Originally Posted by rajeshchand

Nothing towards any profession here, but some of the richest families of India are farmer families, then they diversified into other industries. Almost everything that they use daily for the farming is subsidised, subsidised diesel, subsidised or free power, heavily subsidised fertilizer, completely financed or heavily subsidised farm equipments, this is hurtful when many of those families can buy these at full price and agricultural income is completely tax free while i pay through my nose, one way i believe that we should do away with every kind of subsidy and make this a completely free economy, though personally i dont believe in doing off-roading and ignorant use of forest land.

OT
I stand corrected. A common man or city dweller also commutes on a two wheeler that runs on petrol, while the country's highest IT payers run their Audi's and BMW's on subsidized diesel.
The point here is why should people who can afford such premium cars get subsidized fuel. Be it a rich Farmer or an Industrialist or a politician.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Jerrycan

OT
I stand corrected. A common man or city dweller also commutes on a two wheeler that runs on petrol, while the country's highest IT payers run their Audi's and BMW's on subsidized diesel.
The point here is why should people who can afford such premium cars get subsidized fuel. Be it a rich Farmer or an Industrialist or a politician.

An answer to your OT question. When you subsidize something, everybody will take benefit. Farm subsidies enable cheaper vegetables(relatively speaking). But even a billionare can go to farmers market and get cheaper vegetables, and benefit from subsidy. you would want to ban rich people from shopping in farmers markets. eh?

[honeybee]

I remember reading in a newspaper a few days ago about forest officials and locals foiling an OTR with a large number of participants. The event had been organized by some automobile company and wasn't one of the OTR meets that we see here.

Whatever the cause, it's good to see this debate taking place. I have a suggestion to make: Why not 'create' an off-road track where people can practise the OTR skills? Racing is not allowed on public roads, and there are a few good race tracks around where you may go for a spin whenever you feel like. Why not create a similar infrastructure for offroading where you can customize everything to your pleasure?

Of course this would mean paying for participation but I think it would be way better than getting stuck in some vague rules, spoiling the fun, facing unwanted action and bad light and worst of all alienating the locals who will ensure such events are never held in their area.

[Jerrycan]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

An answer to your OT question. When you subsidize something, everybody will take benefit. Farm subsidies enable cheaper vegetables(relatively speaking). But even a billionare can go to farmers market and get cheaper vegetables, and benefit from subsidy. you would want to ban rich people from shopping in farmers markets. eh?

I have an answer to your quote my friend.
But there are too many OT discussions on this thread
let us do some justice to Arka's thread and take our arguments to a new Thread: Subsidies and the common man.

[srishiva]

I think generally we don't think about permissions on any public land. Even trekking is illegal in most forests.
Hope we get educated with such facts.

[rajeshchand]

Originally Posted by maddy42

9) Free market is a good idea. Everything should come to your plate at the correct price. No correction and govt interference. Then we can be free and fair.

Cmon man no hard feelings but such sweeping generalization doesnt help anyone. You have your side of the story and here is mine. Sorry for going off topic but we are a long way away from Forest land now.

I can find some generalisation there, I am also not talking about the 100%, as in the case of any other industry, the percentage which is misusing this subsidy, there are some states in this country which have insitutionalised this misuse for which I am bound to pay and everyone have a problem when I buy subsidised diesel, make it free and fair, common platform. I am also part of a family which is into farming, I don't want to get into the details, though not wheat or rice cultivation I myself own farmland of certain high yielding crops and know first hand how things work.

[V-16]

First of all off roading is not a recognized sport in India and by the look of it it is not going to be in the near future unless our beloved government sees some monetary benefit in it or some authorities see it as a tool for harassing innocent persons and making a quick buck out of it. Secondly land is too expensive and not in so much abundance as is there in Australia and USA for building a track. Even if someone would take the pain and trouble, how many times would an off roader go there once the course is done. It will get repetitive and loos its charm and attraction.

Coming to entering Forest lands, i agree is a big no no. There is also a problem attached to this. Most of not all entries and exits to forests in India are neither manned not marked and no board exists in most of them except, say a few which we can count on our fingers. Yes i agree entering deliberately into forest land is as i have already said a big No No and all precautions should be taken against this but how does one find out. Every patch of land with trees and tall grass is not a forest land.

Unfortunately, laws govern only the law abiding, for the non law abiding, there are no laws at all. Poachers kill Tigers and hunt down Rhinos mercilessly from Reserve national forests while our authorities sleep and turn a blind eye but swoop down on an individual or a group of they enter a forest by mistake, especially when the so called forest looks like a meadow without any indications that it is a forest. While i do propagate that forest land, should never be used for an impromptu or unmanaged OTR, it is not true that every OTR spoils the forest, lets not treat this on the same level as intentional tree felling and animal poaching. The responsibility of this lies with the persons heading the group and it is they who should see that no damage comes to the environment.

Coming to the locals, who everyone portrays as downtrodden, weak and dumb. The picture is quite the opposite. They are as aware as you and I, well at least most of them and such a person would make a deal with you and put you on the wrong path if he sees his interest being covered.

We have also cone across really wanting locals in some of our earlier OTRs wherein we had taken the initiative of distributing, clothes, shoes, and toys amongst the villages we used as an OTR. Something like a CRS exercise though not on that level. Im sure each one tries in our own small ways. But there are other locals who throw a blanket of pretense around themselves, their main aim being monetary advantage of the situation. So beware whom you deal with.

Lets face it, forest land will never be officially available for us to explore with vehicles, maybe we should plan an otr cum trek there then. That should be fun. Unfortunately there are a lot of entrants who have come into the OTR scene recently, only because it involves the "Macho" feel with Jeeps and getting dirty with a sense of power. I fail to see the similarities, really. These guys should be made to understand that n otr requires utter discipline and delicate finesse and if they still want to go about their vagabond ways, they are best avoided like plague to take along to an OTR.

For me an OTR means excitement, freedom, like a nomad, move into uncharted terrain and test skills of both man and machine, without causing any harm to flaura or fauna. To term and perceive it as an irresponsible and rebel activity amongst crazy people who spoil the forest with their non bio degradable remnants or having fun and wasting fossil fuel is the most ridiculous argument i have come across. Its to each his own i guess. Not every person wandering off into unexplored land is not a dement. Nor is the general offroader an unscrupulous person whose main aim is to trample and destroy all forests in his immediate reach armed with a 4x4 demon wearing shoes which dig up mother earth and cause damage as extensive as a nuclear holocaust. Give some credit to the community. Yes mistakes have been made by one and all, some have got caught and penalized and some have escaped, just ensure that intentional trespasses are not repeated. Mistakes will happen and should be treated as mistakes and care should be taken that they are not repeated.

Authorities have to also buck up their act and ensure ample and visible signage or fencing etc is undertaken to let those entering without any knowledge, know where they are heading.

In a nutshell, DONT tread into forest land. Dont tread into land where there is a visible concentration of Flora or such land which is not accessible without damage to flora. Dont get into a land which looks like a forest or you have a doubt that it could be. Dont believe touts and locals blindly about an area being or not being forest land. I dont subscribe to the idea that no one person can go for an otr (normally just one vehicle does not even go). IMHO if the group is kept small and private, its always better and while at it, lets not get into unrelated matters like farm subsidy etc. Farmlands and fields should be off limits anyways.

[Sudarshan]

There is going to be some Frank Rant by Me , Please forgive me Gogi Bhai Or Report to delete if I sound out of place , wont feel bad , but I feel its my duty to speakup for a silent class

Originally Posted by V-16

First of all off roading is not a recognized sport in India and by the look of it it is not going to be in the near future unless our beloved government sees some monetary benefit in it or some authorities see it as a tool for harassing innocent persons and making a quick buck out of it.

Frankly its a game for few select people in the society who are Financially well off , who can afford to have a vehicle . ( for what ever ) , why we expect the govt then to recognize it as sport ? What Qualities of sport do 'We' demonstrate ??

Secondly land is too expensive and not in so much abundance as is there in Australia and USA for building a track. Even if someone would take the pain and trouble, how many times would an off roader go there once the course is done. It will get repetitive and loos its charm and attraction.

Yes you have a Point

== Most of not all entries and exits to forests in India are neither manned not marked and no board exists in most of them except, say a few which we can count on our fingers.

Ignorance of Law , how far we can plead it ??

Unfortunately, laws govern only the law abiding, for the non law abiding, there are no laws at all. Poachers kill Tigers and hunt down Rhinos mercilessly from Reserve national forests while our authorities sleep and turn a blind eye but swoop down on an individual or a group of they enter a forest by mistake, especially when the so called forest looks like a meadow without any indications that it is a forest.

Gogibhai ; In one word , 'This' is not expected by you At All > he jumped red light so did I < ????

We cant fight with the system ,can we ? Particularly with the 'definition ' of Forrest ??

The responsibility of this lies with the persons heading the group and it is they who should see that no damage comes to the environment

Currently this is not a reality with all , its a rarity

Coming to the locals, who everyone portrays as downtrodden, weak and dumb. The picture is quite the opposite. They are as aware as you and I, well at least most of them and such a person would make a deal with you and put you on the wrong path if he sees his interest being covered.

Sir infact locals are smarter than you , but I have never faced a single problem while I trekked in MH for about 15 years . Yes some groups did face problems but it was their own Attitude .

Lets face it, forest land will never be officially available for us to explore with vehicles, maybe we should plan an otr cum trek there then. That should be fun.

Yes this is a good Idea

Unfortunately there are a lot of entrants who have come into the OTR scene recently, only because it involves the "Macho" feel with Jeeps and getting dirty with a sense of power. I fail to see the similarities, really. These guys should be made to understand that n otr requires utter discipline and delicate finesse and if they still want to go about their vagabond ways, they are best avoided like plague to take along to an OTR.

but who is going to do that , people ( organizers ) talk one thing on net & behave as irresponsibly as they can , This is the ground reality

Give some credit to the community. Yes mistakes have been made by one and all, some have got caught and penalized and some have escaped, just ensure that intentional trespasses are not repeated. Mistakes will happen and should be treated as mistakes and care should be taken that they are not repeated.

Lets not repeat things & hide behind the pretext of 'Mistake ' & do it again & again .

Authorities have to also buck up their act and ensure ample and visible signage or fencing etc is undertaken to let those entering without any knowledge, know where they are heading.

In the wilderness , I learned few things ,like not to step on a snake .......

In a nutshell, DONT tread into forest land. Dont tread into land where there is a visible concentration of Flora or such land which is not accessible without damage to flora. Dont get into a land which looks like a forest or you have a doubt that it could be. Dont believe touts and locals blindly about an area being or not being forest land. I dont subscribe to the idea that no one person can go for an otr (normally just one vehicle does not even go). IMHO if the group is kept small and private, its always better and while at it, lets not get into unrelated matters like farm subsidy etc. Farmlands and fields should be off limits anyways.

Who cant agree to this , you have spoken absolute truth , lets behave responsibly & do not give chance to anyone to raise a finger

Sudarshan

[anujmishra]

Forest is protected land and yes taking Diesel vehicle to forest will unstable the environment. Many of the forest reserve do not allow diesel cars inside it.

There can be many places which is away from forest as well as secluded from population.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

There is going to be some Frank Rant by Me , Please forgive me Gogi Bhai Or Report to delete if I sound out of place , wont feel bad , but I feel its my duty to speakup for a silent class

Franklyand thankfully, i found no rant in your replies Rajubhai You and me may not agree on a few points but then thats just fine but i see that we are talking about the same thing, albeit in a different way. What I am not trying to be, is a spokesperson of any class, i speak for myself as dont want anyone to say later that "who asked you to speak on my behalf?" and you should also speak for yourself not about any silent class. In the past we both have fallen prey to such queries im sure, so im going to just talk about what i feel, no names, no hints just what i think, as i have posted above. Anyways, this is not a debate i and i do not wish it to be.

Frankly its a game for few select people in the society who are Financially well off , who can afford to have a vehicle . (for what ever ) , why we expect the govt then to recognize it as sport ? What Qualities of sport do 'We' demonstrate ??

I agree and dont. About its a sport of a select few yes. i have never said that the govt recognize this as a sport, (though id like it to be) the govt does not even know what offroading is. We should accept that even if we go by the book they will not recognize it simply because they see no income in it. Heck they havnt recognized tourism, the highest employment generator directly and indirectly and one of the highest foreign exchange earner, so this is a long shot.

Ignorance of Law , how far we can plead it ??

Not pleading ignorance of law, that is not an excuse just not knowing because no one informed me. How the heck should i know?. I dont think anyone here or even from the Govt or even the particular department would know whether a particular area is restricted or not unless there is some reference. This is a well known but thats not what we are talking about. Im sure you will agree that that there should be prominent signages in prominent places so that people are made aware and ignorance is not used as an excuse in the future.

Gogibhai ; In one word , 'This' is not expected by you At All > he jumped red light so did I < ????

We cant fight with the system ,can we ? Particularly with the 'definition ' of Forrest ??

This is is not about you, me or anyone in particular. You understood me incorrectly Rajubhai. I am not saying that anyone be allowed to jump the light. Im just saying, put a light at least, so everyone knows there is a signal People do follow signals when they are present.

Currently this is not a reality with all , its a rarity

In fact its quite the opposite. It is a reality with rare cases as i have mentioned, in which unfortunately it is a reality and unless one has a death wish, they would not venture in such irresponsible activities again.

Sir infact locals are smarter than you , but I have never faced a single problem while I trekked in MH for about 15 years . Yes some groups did face problems but it was their own Attitude .

Exactly what im saying. I have also never faced problems with locals. Its when two locals clash, they drag you into it or unless you have an atittude problem or they do. It usually starts when one influential person is contacted and the other person's ego gets bruised. Anyways thats not the point. So dont believe everything a local says, its mostly for their own benefit.

but who is going to do that , people ( organizers ) talk one thing on net & behave as irresponsibly as they can , This is the ground reality

I will disagree with your generalization here. There is always an exception to a rule and one cant infer, that being the general rule. Maybe you have faced such people, i have been an integral part of many OTRs and have also attended various which are organized by others. Never came across organizers like how you say but im sure they exist and i would avoid going with them if i knew they were such. So also, when you come across participants who do not respect and follow the organizer's rules and path and want to undertake some macho stunts, then they are best avoided in the future.

Lets not repeat things & hide behind the pretext of 'Mistake ' & do it again & again.

Exactly what i have said. Only an idiot would do it again and then that is his choice altogether and not for you and me to say "i told you so"


[/quote]In the wilderness , I learned few things ,like not to step on a snake .......
Who cant agree to this , you have spoken absolute truth , lets behave responsibly & do not give chance to anyone to raise a finger
[/quote]

Absolutely.


I was just reading through this thread and found it impossible to keep my views from posting them. My point is it is very easy to sit in armchairs with a keyboard on your lap, most such persons never having set out on an otr or even an outdoors trip and commenting how one should do this and that. Especially the pseudo environmentalists. My point is that if you are not allowed to take your vehicle in the forest, go upto a point where you can and then trek it the other way (now dont go walking into Sanjay Gandhi National park or the Gir forest.....even at your own risk). Enjoy the forest, the greenery and conserve it as much as possible. Im not propogating an otr in the forst im propogating enjoying it and for that the government has to get up and face adventure tourism. Trekking, camping etc. and a road or a pathway to get there.


Please, no one understand this wrongly as a personal tirade or my view against someone in particular, im talking through my experiences and those of my close friends. I think we must carefully choose whom we want to go out with.

[DirtyDan]

I see that the Palar challenge now gives an "Adventure Zone Green Team Award" for collecting plastic bottles along the way.

Nice touch, Arka. Besides the cleanup it reinforces the idea of being a steward of the environment and makes off-roading an activity for conservation, not mindless pillage. As far as the subsidy/free market debate goes, the world would be a far better place if I ruled it. I am waiting patiently with my mobile switched on, waiting for "The Call".