[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Linings are new OE. Have degreased everything. Have done all the easy stuff and it has been passed around to 4 different mech shops including 2 dealers.

Linings changed, degreased everything, no leakage, still problem, hmmm...

DD what model Invader is yours?

I do not understand satirical English that well, can you explain things in a more simpler manner? Problem definition I mean.

Spike

[DirtyDan]

Hi Spike,

I was hoping you would show up. The problem is twofold. The handbrake will not hold no matter how they adjust it. And, no matter what mechanic tries to adjust the rear brakes, the pads are either always engaging the drums resulting in very hot smoking, steaming wheels or the rear brakes don't seem to engage strongly at all. My driveway is very steep and I can easily feel the difference as compared to when the vehicle was new. Rear pads are brand new OE. Everything degreased.

It is a 2009 4x4 Invader. Many people wouldn't bother with fixing it. It isn't real bad but I am here in the Himalayas and you really want PERFECT brakes here. The roads are bad and you have to get by trucks and drive on the edges of steep dropoffs.

One guy is telling me that my handbrake cable is bad (stretched out) and because of this
my brakes cannot be adjusted properly. There is slightly more travel in the brake pedal than usual. Front brakes are fine with new pads. No lights on my dash, not losing brake fluid. Visual check of brake fluid reservoir shows fluid level okay. Nearest handbrake cable spare for Invader is 500k away at Delhi...maybe...they say.

Sutripta, I will try that test you recommended first chance.

Spike, I have done all the normal stuff. Still have the problem. 5 different mechanics have failed to fix it including two M&M shops.

There have been several posts from jeepers on this site complaining about jeep rear brakes. So I am also interested in an upgrade if possible.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

There is slightly more travel in the brake pedal than usual.

In all probability, the hand brakes are adjusted to a level that the rear liners are always(even slightly) binding to the drums.

I think if you let go of the handbrakes(disengage) until you get a new cable, or try something new out, you will at-least get proper and reliable rear braking (reverse braking).

As I don't think the handbrakes will hold after a 20+km trip, moreover in the current set up, makes the rear braking pathetic, and makes you change the linerS more frequently.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Spike, I was hoping you would show up.

DD, you need not wait for me to turn up. I am not active these days here so if you could bring my notice to the thread, you can expect a quicker reply. I will help with whatever I can.

The problem is twofold. The handbrake will not hold no matter how they adjust it.

1. Did this problem occur after you did some other related repairs or it happened all of a sudden?

2. Is the braking normal for a few kms drive once the adjustment is made or does it remain the same?

3. How is the handbrake engagement do you hear 7 klicks (klick-klick-klick-klick-klick-klick-klick) from the notches?

You can check the handbrake functioning like this-

1. Put the car on a lift, or if there is no hydraulic lift jack up the rear axle. With T/m neutral, try to rotate the rear wheels which are in air. Note down the wheel freeness.

2. Now, pull the handbrake lever 7 notches and do the wheel freeness check again. This will tell you about the handbrake effectiveness. If the wheel is still free for your liking the adjustment of the handbrake cable or within the wheel ends is not correct (in the handbrake assembly, near the rollers there is a stud and check nut which can be adjusted).

There is slightly more travel in the brake pedal than usual. And, no matter what mechanic tries to adjust the rear brakes, the pads are either always engaging the drums resulting in very hot smoking, steaming wheels or the rear brakes don't seem to engage strongly at all.

This is what the actual culprit is causing and looks to me like a case of "Brake drag" resulting from incomplete shoe release.

As you said you have checked all the basic things, I would think that your automatic slack adjuster within the brake assembly is not working properly. But still, in that case any one side of wheel (faulty side) must be showing problems, in your case it is both the rear wheels? Do both your rear wheels get hot when in continuous engagement? If it is both wheels, then the master cylinder can also cause such problems.

As you have changed the liners and (??), I am not bringing them into the equation now. If you think they can be faulty, let me know, I will tell you what to check and how.

Front brakes are fine with new pads.

Ok

One guy is telling me that my handbrake cable is bad (stretched out) and because of this my brakes cannot be adjusted properly.

Handbrake cables do not give away that easily !

There have been several posts from jeepers on this site complaining about jeep rear brakes. So I am also interested in an upgrade if possible.

Upgrade I will tell you, S-L-O-W-L-Y

Spike

[svsantosh]

brake master check? booster check? disconnect the whole hand brake system and check if the main braking works fine? is there any step inside the drums, all even wear?

[Sutripta]

^^^
DDs basic problem is with the handbrake. The only way in which the hydraulic system can affect it is if the shoes are not retracting fully. Causing the linings to either glaze or burn at point of contact. Changing their characteristics. Otherwise we can give the hydraulics a miss for the time being.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

As you said you have checked all the basic things, I would think that your automatic slack adjuster within the brake assembly is not working properly.

Did not know that the Invader has autoadjusting rear brakes. Opens up a whole new avenue of things to go wrong.

@DD: Fitting bigger drums will not help with your trouble.

Regards
Sutripta

[ex670c]

Hi DD,

When was the last time the brakes were overhauled.

Were the Wheel Cylinder kits changed? If yes, then

sometimes the mechanics forget to put back a small recoil spring inside the wheel cylinder, this can cause the brakes to drag.

Also check the Brake Shoe adjustment cam, if it is rotated and fitted, it will be very difficult to adjust the Brake Shoes.

Regards,

Arka

[Jaggu]

What i can suggest is to do a step by step job done. Start with rear wheels, check drums, pads and wheel cylinders then set the pad free play according to spec. Drive the vehicle and see if its running fine. Things like brake pedal play, pull, overall stopping efficiency are the things i would keep an eye out for.

Then connect the handbrake cable and check if the pads are being activated when the lever is being pulled up. Usually the hand brake handle should move between 5-7 clicks, by which time the rear wheels are fully locked.

If the pads are not getting activated, obvious culprit will be the cable system.

But on the other hand if they are getting activated but staying there even when the handle is released, will indicate that the return spring is not set right.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

1. Did this problem occur after you did some other related repairs or it happened all of a sudden?

2. Is the braking normal for a few kms drive once the adjustment is made or does it remain the same?

3. How is the handbrake engagement do you hear 7 klicks (klick-klick-klick-klick-klick-klick-klick) from the notches?

You can check the handbrake functioning like this-

1. Put the car on a lift, or if there is no hydraulic lift jack up the rear axle. With T/m neutral, try to rotate the rear wheels which are in air. Note down the wheel freeness.

2. Now, pull the handbrake lever 7 notches and do the wheel freeness check again. This will tell you about the handbrake effectiveness. If the wheel is still free for your liking the adjustment of the handbrake cable or within the wheel ends is not correct (in the handbrake assembly, near the rollers there is a stud and check nut which can be adjusted).


This is what the actual culprit is causing and looks to me like a case of "Brake drag" resulting from incomplete shoe release.

Yeah, brake drag sounds like a strong possibility. Both wheels have gotten hot in the past but usually one side or the other is VERY hot. Right now the wheels are not hot but, the brakes aren't working too good either. Arka's suggestion about recoil springs sounds plausible. Will check them.

The last time they adjusted them, they seemed okay for about 85K then, not good, handbrake not holding etc. Handbrake has no slack, makes clicking noise but hardly holds at all.

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi DD,

When was the last time the brakes were overhauled.

Were the Wheel Cylinder kits changed? If yes, then

sometimes the mechanics forget to put back a small recoil spring inside the wheel cylinder, this can cause the brakes to drag.

Also check the Brake Shoe adjustment cam, if it is rotated and fitted, it will be very difficult to adjust the Brake Shoes.

Regards,

Arka

Been thru 3 new rear wheel cylinders in the last year...leaks after a suicide stop. [Almost nailed a Tata 407 in my lane..but an incredible piece of driving, with me putting my foot thru the brake pedal and floor, to the pavement, saved the day] But, not leaking now, I check the resevoir regularly. And, I have changed the pads twice within 3 months just to eliminate the possibility of bad/damaged pads...OE parts and Mahindra labor used for this. Will remember what you say about the recoil springs.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

.....
But on the other hand if they are getting activated but staying there even when the handle is released, will indicate that the return spring is not set right....

Hmmm....we are getting something like consensus between you, spike an arka.

Thanks all, for your comments. I am reading each one even if I don't reply on it.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Handbrake has no slack, makes clicking noise but hardly holds at all.

Clicking sound is from the lever, lever in turn operates the cable. If the cable is loose beyond spec it will not tighten up when the lever is pulled (like free play). But you will still get clicking sound. So not a good check.

You will have to ask your mech to see if the pads at the wheel end are getting activated at 5-7 click positions. Then the cable system is aok. Sometimes there will be a cable splitter at the second half (towards wheel side) for each sides and a provision to adjust the play at that point. If so adjusting the same might also help, instead of cable replacement.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Thanks all, for your comments. I am reading each one even if I don't reply on it.

So did you get time to do the checks again? is the problem fixed?

Curious to know what happened to the handbrake mystery.

[DirtyDan]

No good final solution for this. I am limping along, making do with rear brakes, hand brake, that work half-arsed. Perhaps I will get into it a bit more after the monsoons.