[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Sharat,
When did i say Thar is a consistent winner in MGE? I said, Thar has proved itself to be a hardy off-roader across MGE and also Off-roaders across India have put it to test at Off-road trophy and Thar never let them down.

Oh, when you said Thar has proved itself in MGE, I thought you meant they were winning regularly. My mistake.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

To give fair credit to THar in multi-brand events, Desert storm is a recent example. In a race over 7 days closest Gyspy (high revving petrol) was about 1 hr behind Thar!! Thar was just 15-20 mins away from GV which is a far more powerful high revving petrol. Don't you think Thar coming so close is an achievement for a Diesel?

Moot point, I already said these events are not the JeepThrills kind of offroading we are talking about.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

I haven't kept a record but Thar CRDe did win some speed sprint off-road competitions in Karnataka & elsewhere.

Exactly my point. Thar CRDe is meant for such speed sprint off-road competitions. Not my kind of events at all.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Any vehicle needs a good driver and I am sure with a good driver behind the wheel and with a good team, Thar would do well in TPC. Its only a matter of time.

I hope the Thar participants from past TPC won't read this. But you obviously know TPC isn't just a speed sprint off-road event.

[desertfox]

What I am saying is that how does CMVR matter with IFS or SOlid axle, they dont specify that or why a solid plastic mud flap for an off roader instead of a flexible one or better a rallyart type chain suspended one ? These little things were up to the designer not CMVR.

Are CMVR standards better that EEC ? When one model has been developed for exports why not launch the same here ?

Every vehicle is different. But will I buy the cheek that a Thar is better than a Jeep Wrangler JK ? Because it has seven slat grill ? Then why not a huge Jeep logo why Mahindra ?

There are various things associated with off roading. Torque, sustained high end torque and traction / gearing is important as in Power to Weight Ratio.

Vinod / Sudev Brar did mention Grand Vitaras beating MM550 and Thar.

Let me recall one incident about three years ago. Sudev Jee do you remember you had come to an NIOC OTR in your Vitara and another similar Grand Vitara the day Sudhir Kashyap and Uday Bhan Singh were also there with us.

On a hard mud but loose gravel slope your two Grand Vitaras failed to make up while all Cj3B and MM550 went up. There was no Thar then.

Why were you struggling even with more BHP, the answer is Torque. Plenty of high end torque at low RPM or a diff lock. A centre diff lock would have pushed the vehicle from the rear axle or a AT tyre with better traction.

Why did the Jeeps make it up ? Torque alone.

This is what needs to be understood. When off roading, 70 % of the ability lies with the driver and 30 % with the vehicle. But the 30 % part but give the right tools to the driver and the Thar is not delivering that in contrast to what is being promised.

Dhabar Ji, build me a 200 bhp Jeep with a 2 inch lift, balanced drive shaft travel for the 2 inch lift, a lsd in the rear and central diff locks, a 2nd gear ration of 1:2.26 and I can clomb anything with it.

[wbd8779]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

To give fair credit to THar in multi-brand events, Desert storm is a recent example. In a race over 7 days closest Gyspy (high revving petrol) was about 1 hr behind Thar!! Thar was just 15-20 mins away from GV which is a far more powerful high revving petrol. Don't you think Thar coming so close is an achievement for a Diesel?

Dear Mr Nookala,


I would have kept out of the discussions , however i had to comment on the above mentioned paragraph.

The 3 xtreme category vehicles in the Desert Storm , 1 thar and 2 XUV"s between them ate up 18 (yes 18 ) turbos.

The DS winning Vitara only had 1 Throttle Body Failure in the entire event.

The truth is that if the Thar did not have factory support it would not have lasted beyond the first stage itself.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by desertfox

What I am saying is that how does CMVR matter with IFS or SOlid axle, they dont specify that or why a solid plastic mud flap for an off roader instead of a flexible one or better a rallyart type chain suspended one ? These little things were up to the designer not CMVR.

Actually, I would kind of blame the Design team for this confusion you have.
They kind of throw CMVR and other limitations in the same breath, so you are confused which is which.
You have to know there are two separate limitations + some additional VETO.
The Thar team was given the mandate
1. Confirm to CMVR
This meant no front facing seats as meeting norms for 5 seater would have pushed up cost
2. Use existing parts bin
This threw out the solid axle out of the window
3. Keep cost below X

An engineer has only so much leevay in product design. Let me give you a real example. The new storme does not have front auto locking hubs, but a more complex mechanism of AXLE ECU which connects and disconnects the front AXLE.
There is no need of this. But I am sure, somebody from marketing would have said that the vehicle looks better without protruding hubs.

Similarly for Thar, a manager in marketing would have said, steps are for village jeeps, we want a lifestyle vehicle, so these metal steps will not do.

Then there are other things.
For example using a MM550 kind of solid axle system would not have made Thar a good highway handler. We all know what jeeps do when they cross 60kmph. Thar was supposed to run at 100kmph. Again, the marketing will look at sales. What 90% want trumps 10% want.

That said, I wish design team had chosen better stuff from parts bin for interiors. Incremental cost increase, but big gain from a vehicle POV. Thar sells 500 units a month, and at 20-30K more with better interiors it could have sold ~900 vehicles/month
The suits can be blamed, but the product design team should have pushed more.

As wbd8779 said. there is no excuse for turbo failures or part failures in a easy event like Desert Storme which is not hard on articulation. We also know the fiasco of exhaust in engine bay thing, again nothing to do with CMVR or etc.,

Thar has it faults, but what you are expecting would mean a 10L jeep which the country is not ready for, esp from a Brand like Mahindra, which is supposed to make rugged on a budget jeeps and Boleros

[desertfox]

I wonder what kind of desert storm terrain it was. It must have been simple desert sand tracks, salt plains and hard ground otherwise a Thar is underpowered for serious desert work. It will fail to climb even a 40 ft dune.

For that matter a Grand Vitara is quite capable on easy sand. I have tested a Grand Vitara XL-7 once in Sharjah desert, Grade 2 track it did cross 40 ft dunes quite easily, but it had a 2.5 l V6 engine.

3 Extreme category, this that, how ? When the vehicle is not an extreme off road vehicle how in the world did it win ? How many Wranglers, Landcruisers, Cherookees, Isuzu Troopers, Prados, Pajeros with 3500 V6 did it beat that is more important.

If it beat two dozen 45 BHP Gypsies and twenty MM550s then congratulations to team Thar, keep it up!

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by desertfox

I wonder what kind of desert storm terrain it was. It must have been simple desert sand tracks, salt plains and hard ground otherwise a Thar is underpowered for serious desert work. It will fail to climb even a 40 ft dune.!

Desert storme is an event, where people drive very fast on tracks between desert villages of Rajasthan. Normally these tracks are traversed in 40 horse power jeeps loaded with 20 people each.
Extreme version is same tracks, with deeper sand.
The toughest track from a 4WD POV does not exceed this. Here I am climbing a 10 feet dune. I have very low offroading experience, and this is the most I have done, but I think my vehicle with 140bhp engine could do a 20 feet dune if the A/T tires were deflated to 20PSI or 18PSI in the hands of a a capable sand driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkyWGb0mRY4

So if you are imagining a screaming Turbocharged V8 charging up a 40 feet dune, you are in dream world
There is no such thing in desert storm.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by desertfox

Dhabar Ji, build me a 200 bhp Jeep with a 2 inch lift, balanced drive shaft travel for the 2 inch lift, a lsd in the rear and central diff locks, a 2nd gear ration of 1:2.26 and I can clomb anything with it.

Slightly OT question, just for my understanding. What is the need for a central diff lock in a part-time 4WD like Thar? It doesn't have central diff.

[wbd8779]

Originally Posted by desertfox

I wonder what kind of desert storm terrain it was. It must have been simple desert sand tracks, salt plains and hard ground otherwise a Thar is underpowered for serious desert work. It will fail to climb even a 40 ft dune.

For that matter a Grand Vitara is quite capable on easy sand. I have tested a Grand Vitara XL-7 once in Sharjah desert, Grade 2 track it did cross 40 ft dunes quite easily, but it had a 2.5 l V6 engine.

3 Extreme category, this that, how ? When the vehicle is not an extreme off road vehicle how in the world did it win ? How many Wranglers, Landcruisers, Cherookees, Isuzu Troopers, Prados, Pajeros with 3500 V6 did it beat that is more important.

If it beat two dozen 45 BHP Gypsies and twenty MM550s then congratulations to team Thar, keep it up!

My point was to show that inspite of all the hoopla around the thar being a "well engineered " jeep , it cannot even beat Modified Maruti gypsies made on shoe string budgets in tin sheds , by mechanics who do not at times have a torque wrench.

The only way it could win was with Complete factory support.

I was frankly very interested in getting one , by selling off my Gypsy .

But the deal breaker happened when my wife checked out the interiors of the Thar and said that our 10 year old Gypsy has better , why would you wish to "downgrade" to this ?

[zeemmee]

Originally Posted by desertfox

The list of really capable desert champion vehicles is :

Jeep Wrangler TJ,YJ or JK with 4000 cc engine
LC Prado 90, 120 SWB or LWB with 3400 V6 5VZFE or IGRFE engines
Toyota Landcruiser with 4500 I6 engine
Nissan Patrol SWB or even LWB with 4500 or 4800 engines
Mitsubishi Pajero with 3500 V 6 SWB better LWB kind of OK
Toyota FJ Cruiser - the best desert drive ever created with 4000 cc 1GRFE engine.
Suzuki Viatras with 1800 cc petrol engines offer a great P/W ratio
Toyota RAV 4 SWB

The desert fun begins here.

On team BHP I had posted an off road test drive report for FJ Cruiser on its launch day. Perhaps you would be interested in reading it.

I have to agree with you there, FJ is doing wonders when compared to the rest. I was seriously planning to buy a Thar, but somehow compelled myself to hold back due to the odd proportions of the vehicle. I Admit I have no clue about the performance of Thar, but since I made my own statement “roads in our country are actually off roads" I had decided to buy a used Thar/Jeep. Then scouring through the pages of hard top Thar it seemed that vehicle just leaped ahead in the odd category. Mahindra replicated CJ, which started production in 1940's, is it not easier to make YJ or TJ if not JK? And above all why go for a redesign of such an icon? Using similar external & internal design, chassis with modern engines + comforts (within patent issues) would have done wonders. Especially when the new design is appalling. The original Jeep was designed to replace Horse, what Mahindra needs is a time machine.
@ Desertfox seems you are “The” Shahid, also from Emarat 4x4, Good to know you Sir.

[desertfox]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Slightly OT question, just for my understanding. What is the need for a central diff lock in a part-time 4WD like Thar? It doesn't have central diff.

It will be a full time 4WD not part time.

Zeemee yes all the emarat4x4 marshals, Sikandar, Championdada, Kaiser, and many others are old friends. In fact I had given the DDC forum to them which they renamed as emarat4x4 before I returned to India.
I wonder what happened to the collection of our trip albums, must have migrated it, I use to run the forum of php intergra mod, Kaiser now runs it on a different platform, I wonder if the domain name on godaddy.com has been retained would love to retrieve all those old off road pictures.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by wbd8779

Dear Mr Nookala,


I would have kept out of the discussions , however i had to comment on the above mentioned paragraph.

The 3 xtreme category vehicles in the Desert Storm , 1 thar and 2 XUV"s between them ate up 18 (yes 18 ) turbos.

The DS winning Vitara only had 1 Throttle Body Failure in the entire event.

The truth is that if the Thar did not have factory support it would not have lasted beyond the first stage itself.

Mods - Pls delete if required , however facts must be stated.

Oh! Thank you for giving stats which I didn't know! Were you a part of Mahindra service camp to know such details? Not sure about you but I was present right there manning the service camp.

All I can say your stats are baseless and non-factual! Yes, we lost to GV and we have respect for it. Please accept fact that Thar actually performed better than the Gypsy in that rally & move on! Who knows next rally Gypsy might come back?- Its all in the game!

Originally Posted by desertfox

I wonder what kind of desert storm terrain it was. It must have been simple desert sand tracks, salt plains and hard ground otherwise a Thar is underpowered for serious desert work. It will fail to climb even a 40 ft dune.


3 Extreme category, this that, how ? When the vehicle is not an extreme off road vehicle how in the world did it win ? How many Wranglers, Landcruisers, Cherookees, Isuzu Troopers, Prados, Pajeros with 3500 V6 did it beat that is more important.

If it beat two dozen 45 BHP Gypsies and twenty MM550s then congratulations to team Thar, keep it up!

Thank you very much! I am amazed at your knowledge. Please get more details about the event Desert Storm, number of entries, terrain, etc yourself. May be you will appreciate and digest the win better.

Also would request not to compare apples to oranges. I know Indian rallying scene is at a nascent stage. Don't bring in V6 and V8's, wranglers, rovers to prove your point. Request not to compare what happens in Dubai to India. Dubai is a very evolved market with super expensive vehicles & options. Each event has its own standing. I am not comparing what happens in Dubai to Dakar...Can I?

We are not saying Thar is the last word when it comes to rallying or off-roading. So Wranglers, Lexus, Range rover's etc are safe. Don't worry!



As it is again proving to be a Thar bashing thread, consumers are free to choose what they want. Look at Thar for what it is and not for what it is not.

I rest my case here.

p.s- There were Hilux with V8 petrol, Nissan patrol V6 and Mitsubishi's in Desert Storm -13. Rallying is not about vehicle alone, its a combination of factors with driver, mechanical sturdiness, speed, service support & above all luck playing an important role!

[wbd8779]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Oh! Thank you for giving stats which I didn't know! Were you a part of Mahindra service camp to know such details? Not sure about you but I was present right there manning the service camp.

All I can say your stats are baseless and non-factual! Yes, we lost to GV and we have respect for it. Please accept fact that Thar actually performed better than the Gypsy in that rally & move on! Who knows next rally Gypsy might come back?- Its all in the game!





Thank you very much! I am amazed at your knowledge. Please get more details about the event Desert Storm, number of entries, terrain, etc yourself. May be you will appreciate and digest the win better.

Also would request not to compare apples to oranges. I know Indian rallying scene is at a nascent stage. Don't bring in V6 and V8's, wranglers, rovers to prove your point. Request not to compare what happens in Dubai to India. Dubai is a very evolved market with super expensive vehicles & options. Each event has its own standing. I am not comparing what happens in Dubai to Dakar...Can I?

We are not saying Thar is the last word when it comes to rallying or off-roading. So Wranglers, Lexus, Range rover's etc are safe. Don't worry!


Request to stop Thar bashing and spend time dune bashing instead. It is more productive!


As it is again proving to be a Thar bashing thread, consumers are free to choose what they want. Look at Thar for what it is and not for what it is not.

I rest my case here.

p.s- There were Hilux with V8 petrol, Nissan patrol V6 and Mitsubishi's in Desert Storm -13. Rallying is not about vehicle alone, its a combination of factors with driver, mechanical sturdiness, speed & luck playing an important role!

I guess you should ask your service guys about the number of Turbos and other parts changed , the messed up wiring's and the busted suspensions of the Mahindras.

I have access to both the Maruti and Mahindra setup for Rally prep and have seen both the DS winning vitara and the XUV closely , In fact i have driven the Vitara also.

I was not a part of the Mahindra or the Maruti camps sir , but i have eyes , and i have been a part of the Rally circus for years. You might not agree on a public forum on the number of turbos changed , but you should also not claim that the Thar came second because of its reliability.

Bottom line is that the Thar was not reliable and the only reason it finished was due to your exemplary factory support for service.

[desertfox]

VInod I will need more details on the terrain, I am not Thar bashing or anything all the facts mentioned in this thread are problems I actually faced.

What kind of a trail it was.
And how is it that a 105 bhp diesel engine Thar with low clearance, ground scraping exaust, non off road tyres beat Toyota Hi-Lux V8 ( doubtful unless it was a modified engine entry, Hi Lux comes with 2.7 4 cyl Petrol or the 1GRFE 4000 cc V6 only in twin cab version ), A Nissan Patrol with a 240 bhp engine and much superior desert ability and which Mitsubishi, even the Indian Mitsubishi is superior all around specially the combination of diff locks it has.

So how did it happen ? Were these drivers one off unsupported, had little rally experience, had poor navigators, did not know how to use GPS or read maps, they had entered just for experience and fun.

Otherwise if everything in terms of support was equal then the Thar obviously stands no chance against any of these vehicles.

Is this Desert Storm a FIAA approved event ? Or just a local amatuer event ? How many legs, checkpoints, carriage sections, competition sections, did you race against the best teams like BMW Extreme or Mitsubishi Rally Art ? Did you have rally GPS monitoring systems, was their fixed wing or chopper support ? How was the event judged, what was the prize money ?

I drove a Toyota Tundra with a 8000 cc V12 Chevvy engine and 60 inch coil springs in one of the events, but the winning combination doesnt always come like that. What it churned out was close to 600 bhp. I did not win in it. It had packed up. The engine had blown off that year dashing my hopes. I had a crew of six people from France attending to the engine alone along with the BF Goodrich support team also from France. I won events / did well in modified Landcruiser 90 SWB or Toyota LC 70 series LWB truck. They were nifty and on desert tracks I used to hit 140 / 150 kmph in these.

So a real good driver in a leaase vehicle may win after all, Need information to know how this feat was achieved.

Manveet, everyone's Jeep is special to him. Today I love my MM550, yesterday being a very hot day in Delhi I specially called for it to go back home from office

I miss my CJ3B which I sold to a friend last year, I have loved the FJ Cruiser that I launched in the UAE market for Toyota, I have been in love with all the Prados, Landcruisers and Wranglers ( TJ ) I have owned.

Its a Jeep thing - everyone understands.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by zeemmee

Mahindra replicated CJ, which started production in 1940's, is it not easier to make YJ or TJ if not JK? And above all why go for a redesign of such an icon? Using similar external & internal design, chassis with modern engines + comforts (within patent issues) would have done wonders. Especially when the new design is appalling.

Zeeshan - there's a reason for that. If I remember, the MM540 (father of the Thar?) was built with dies from Asia Motors, who used to build the 'Rocsta' CJ6 or 7 clone before they were acquired by Kia. You can see some Rocsta pics at the link below:

http://flipacars.com/Asia/Asia-Rocsta.html#.UYuX15XHOfQ

Or it would be the older Ssangyong Korando of the 70s whose dies were used. Either way the dies were from some 70s Korean jeep clone.

Its probably Asia Motors, because the KMT gearbox the vehicle came with is apparently from their then parent company Kia Motors (I wonder if that is why it was called KMT - Kia Manual Transmission?).

Despite this, any 4WD made by Hyundai now or anytime in the future is automatically trash.

[Sutripta]

Hi All Warring Parties,
I steer well clear of religious wars, but this 'turbos failing' piqued my interest, so here I am.

Originally Posted by wbd8779

The 3 xtreme category vehicles in the Desert Storm , 1 thar and 2 XUV"s between them ate up 18 (yes 18 ) turbos.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

All I can say your stats are baseless and non-factual!

Could it be that the turbos had not failed, but were changed proactively? Preventive maintainence.

A simple definitive statement saying nn turbos were changed would conclusively close this subpart of the current controversy.

p.s- There were Hilux with V8 petrol, Nissan patrol V6 and Mitsubishi's in Desert Storm -13.

The Hilux and the Nissan Patrol were both running V8s. Juggads.
To imply/ say 'we beat them' is correct. And disingenuous.

Regards
Sutripta