[Samurai]

Originally Posted by yamaniac

Has a terrible body roll, What kind of off road vehicle has Such a terrible body roll? That gives you a feeling that it would topple?

Offroad vehicles generally have terrible body roll. That is because offroad vehicles have high articulation. High articulation is a boon in offroad trail, but is a curse on tar roads because it results in high body roll.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by pvrajan

Dear behram, with put going to the super thar that no one will ever see or get, without involving cmvr, can anything be done for existing users ?

Dear pvrajan - . I cannot stop grinning so I put the smiley first. The only "Super Thar" in existence (which is also diluted now, I know it's sad!) is now being driven by my very good friend, who I believe must be tearing his hair out, trying to accomplish "something"! HaHaHa!

Dear Ken - the "guys" who map the ECU are not "flatlanders" or for that matter, "anylanders" also. Some guys who do this may not be company guys at all! I have very regularly heard "as per XYZ", it is always "XYZ", never "us"! It is very frustrating. That area is a black box. First of all, it is sacrilege to ask. If you are still crazy enough to ask (I was), the "emissions" bogey gets hung in front of you! I got tired of it, that's why "My Super Thar" got born in the first place without anybody even realizing that it existed! Its time someone took this thingy seriously, if not for anything else, there is huge potential for "post registration business" here, which you as customers will gladly pay for and buy, instead of trying your hand at "something, hoping that it will work"! It was made and demonstrated in EXAMM / AKC for that purpose only!

Dear Sharath - off-roaders need not have bad handling. I had proved it on 25 June 2010 late evening during returning to Lonavla from EXAMM where a certain blue colored fully blown rally prepared Gypsy driven by a very competent and dear personal friend could not even keep up, let alone overtake! But for that you need IFS! You also need the tires! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Sharath - off-roaders need not have bad handling. I had proved it on 25 June 2010 late evening during returning to Lonavla from EXAMM where a certain blue colored fully blown rally prepared Gypsy driven by a very competent and dear personal friend could not even keep up, let alone overtake! But for that you need IFS! You also need the tires! .

Thar CRDe beating any kind of Gypsy on highway is hardly a cause for celebration.

[anda60213]

Originally Posted by gthang

So, Mr. DB is happy, Mr. AM is happy, fanboys are happy, and life goes on.

I'll make one addition to this:-
So, Mr. DB is happy, Mr. AM is happy, fanboys are happy, customers are unhappy and life goes on.

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Codelust - yes, I admit that at this price, I do not find value enough to buy the vehicle. Further, I just don't have that kind of money to spend, so I am patiently waiting. In the next two years or so, a carefully used vehicle should become affordable to me. Then I will buy it and make it exactly the way I want.

So the bottomline with the Thar is:
a) Hard core offroaders don't want it (at least many of them find flaws in it wrt off roading capablities)

b) Lifestyle buyers have to pay a lot more than what it is truly worth

c) To make it on road worthy and off road worthy - you need to be Dhabhar Behram and spend money to make it what you want.

So tell me again, why would anyone want to buy it the way it is at the price it is - unless and untill they have been made a sucker by the ads only to realize it later that they have been had?

[manolin]

Originally Posted by anda60213

So tell me again, why would anyone want to buy it the way it is at the price it is - unless and untill they have been made a sucker by the ads only to realize it later that they have been had?

You have given your own answers

There are lots of these kind of people in India.

Originally Posted by anda60213

c) To make it on road worthy and off road worthy - you need to be Dhabhar Behram and spend money to make it what you want.

And lots who are willing to live with a compromise.

[manveet]

Originally Posted by anda60213

I'll make one addition to this:-
So, Mr. DB is happy, Mr. AM is happy, fanboys are happy, customers are unhappy and life goes on.

So the bottomline with the Thar is:
a) Hard core offroaders don't want it (at least many of them find flaws in it wrt off roading capablities)

b) Lifestyle buyers have to pay a lot more than what it is truly worth

c) To make it on road worthy and off road worthy - you need to be Dhabhar Behram and spend money to make it what you want.

So tell me again, why would anyone want to buy it the way it is at the price it is - unless and untill they have been made a sucker by the ads only to realize it later that they have been had?

Dear Anil,

Considering the fact that you are now planning to buy a Ford Ecosport as a Thar replacement , completely disqualifies you as an authority to comment on the merits or demerits of the Thar. I mean, if you would have said a MM5X0, or a Gurkha, heck even a Safari 4x4, we would understand. But an EcoSport !!

A lot of the points you have made on this thread have been valid, and have been very well taken, and appreciated as well. But lately you've been a little all over the place and this quoted post above in which you have so clearly demarcated every Thar owner simply misses the point. Look at it this way, the single factor that unites every Thar owner - is a passion for the Jeep. And you just don't seem to get it.

Fact is that a lot of us have bought the Thar and are happy. And I can assure you that an advertisement did not influence our decision - a look was enough. And then there was a lot more of looking and staring and slurping and gawking, you get the drift?

From all the people posting on this thread, there are only two or three that bought the vehicle and realized that they have been made suckers. Actually I know of just one, but giving a margin of doubt I am extrapolating to two or three. Anyways what is it that you are more angry about - that you got conned by a marketing gimmick that fooled you into thinking that the Thar was a "lifestyle vehicle" or that M&M is selling poor quality stuff to us foolish customers.

In lighter vein, lets just say that its true when Mahindra says that the Thar is Lifestyle Vehicle. They just forgot to elaborate on the kind of lifestyle they were referring to, and some people misunderstood.

[anda60213]

Originally Posted by manveet

Dear Anil,

Considering the fact that you are now planning to buy a Ford Ecosport as a Thar replacement , completely disqualifies you as an authority to comment on the merits or demerits of the Thar.

a) I never claimed myself to be an authority on Thar or Jeeps. I in fact openly admit my ignorance about these vehicles.

b) I never said I was considering "buying" a Ford ecosport. My post mentioned that lifestyle needs will be served equally well by the ecosport and along with that I mentioned a few other vehicles in comparison.

Originally Posted by anda60213

The ford ecosport will serve my needs for urban lifestyle not only just as well but a whole lot better - what with all the other creature comforts already available in it.

The Force Gurkha offers a whole lot of creature comforts and for someone who is willing to endure the crappy quality of manufacturing - it is better to go for Force Gurkha than the Thar.

If you are into more luxury - The Force One is coming out with a 4X4 version which is ready for marketing. It is a lot better in build quality than the XUV.

Finally for those who are into Urban Lifestyle (the target customer of Thar) - remember that the Jeep at any price point is readily more acceptable than the piece of garbage being sold under the name of Thar - because the Urban Lifestyle customer has the money, wants all the goodies but has no time for all the issues - That is the urban lifestyle customer.

Originally Posted by manveet

But lately you've been a little all over the place and this quoted post above in which you have so clearly demarcated every Thar owner simply misses the point.

Everyone on this forum agrees on one thing without doubt:
1) Thar as it is made and sold is not worth the price being charged
2) MM vehicles have quality defects and one needs to learn to live with them and accept it as part of the game (compromise).

Although the use of the word sucker was not intended to belittle any of the existing owners who are enjoying the vehicle any which way they think they can enjoy. So if it sounded disrespectful to anyone - apologies for the same. Sometime we tend to use stronger words for the sake of an effect wthout realizing it could hurt someones sentiments and it happens with me as well at times.

But I don't think I am far from the mark by referring to every Thar owner would have faced some issues. In fact if there have been some Thar owners who have had absolutely no "niggles" those would be few in numbers and it is understandable that in an inconsistent manufacturing - there would be some good pieces as well.

Also, it is quite evident to anyone on this forum that as far as Thar is concerned - There is no greater expert than BD. For the tiniest to the most crucial - BD is the advisor. So, again, I am not far off the mark by saying that if you want to make the vehicle on road and off road worthy - you need to either be BD or have him by your side.

Originally Posted by manveet

Look at it this way, the single factor that unites every Thar owner - is a passion for the Jeep. And you just don't seem to get it.

Oh believe me - I got it. I absolutely got it and that is why I bought the vehicle. That is why I spent 2 lacs additional on it. That is why I contacted several enthusiasts and made plenty of plans to begin this lifestyle. I knew there would be dust in the vehicle but I liked the wind in my hair. I knew the air-con vents did not get me in the face so I rolled the window down. I knew the interiors are shoddy - so I got the seats padded and leather covered. I knew the rear seats are not the safest, so I got seat belts added to it. I knew the gears would be hard and the ride quality might be stiff and I began to enjoy that.

But what happened to all that? I had to throw away this "passion" because the vehicle was "non-functional". I can't enjoy the passion if the vehicle does not function.

Originally Posted by manveet

Fact is that a lot of us have bought the Thar and are happy. And I can assure you that an advertisement did not influence our decision - a look was enough. And then there was a lot more of looking and staring and slurping and gawking, you get the drift?

Sure - plenty of people are happy. And Plenty of people have even admitted that they had to make some compromise or another to get this happiness. And absolutely agree with you on the looks. It is the most fantastic beauty of a vehicle on the roads here. But like I have mentioned in my previous post somewhere - It will still look beautiful even if it is completely stalled and non functional. That is no use to me (or anyone else for that matter), is it?

Originally Posted by manveet

From all the people posting on this thread, there are only two or three that bought the vehicle and realized that they have been made suckers. Actually I know of just one, but giving a margin of doubt I am extrapolating to two or three.

Oh come one now. Enough people have mentioned about the quality defects and compromises they needed to make to enjoy the vehicle. So I guess there are two kinds of suckers - a) Those who compromised to live and manage these issues and b) those who didn't.

Originally Posted by manveet

Anyways what is it that you are more angry about - that you got conned by a marketing gimmick that fooled you into thinking that the Thar was a "lifestyle vehicle" or that M&M is selling poor quality stuff to us foolish customers.

Both. Additionally, I am also angry about not being able to fulfill this passion. I just guess I need to wait till the Jeep comes out and then I have to be willing to pay a price upwards of 20 lacs. If I get the reliability that satisfies my definition of "reliability and quality" I am willing to pay that kind of price.

Originally Posted by manveet

In lighter vein, lets just say that its true when Mahindra says that the Thar is Lifestyle Vehicle. They just forgot to elaborate on the kind of lifestyle they were referring to, and some people misunderstood.

Yup - That sums it up brilliantly. I hope that the next "sucker" reads this post and makes an informed decision. At least he won't be able to say "I didn't know about it" unless if he or she does not read these posts at all.

[Sudarshan]

Chill Pill

Originally Posted by manveet

Dear Anil,
A lot of the points you have made on this thread have been valid, and have been very well taken, and appreciated as well. But lately you've been a little all over the place and this quoted post above in which you have so clearly demarcated every Thar owner simply misses the point. Look at it this way, the single factor that unites every Thar owner - is a passion for the Jeep. And you just don't seem to get it.

Plus 1

Fact is that a lot of us have bought the Thar and are happy. And I can assure you that an advertisement did not influence our decision - a look was enough. And then there was a lot more of looking and staring and slurping and gawking, you get the drift?

Me, Currently in this stage.

From all the people posting on this thread, there are only two or three that bought the vehicle and realized that they have been made suckers. Actually I know of just one, but giving a margin of doubt I am extrapolating to two or three. Anyways what is it that you are more angry about - that you got conned by a marketing gimmick that fooled you into thinking that the Thar was a "lifestyle vehicle" or that M&M is selling poor quality stuff to us foolish customers.

In lighter vein, lets just say that its true when Mahindra says that the Thar is Lifestyle Vehicle. They just forgot to elaborate on the kind of lifestyle they were referring to, and some people misunderstood.

Absolutely true.

Dear Anil & All, Posting a pic of my Land Rover series 2a along with two very Happy Thars on way to a OTR

One which has rolled its sleeves up & ready for action ( Black, one + year old ) & another is from the same batch of Anil's & from the same month & dealer too .

Both are OK & running well without issues like falling nut bolts .

Yes I am Drooling for one ....

Here



Sudarshan

[anda60213]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Chill Pill

Both are OK & running well without issues like falling nut bolts .

Yes I am Drooling for one ....

Sure Sudarshan, Good for you and the new owner.

Let the next buyer also keep the following in mind which I perfectly agree with

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

The exorbitant price tag that does not justify the product, which is otherwise still one of a kind of its own. Its a bold experiment . Its an ice beaker. NO other manufacturer has even thought of such till today. (Have they)

But the greed of MM for money.. has made it overpriced & the price tag does not justify the actual product thats the problem with Thar CRDe

It is indeed a bold experiment. It is one of a kind. It looks great on road. But - You have got to make it work on the road. That's not everyone's cup of tea and surely its not worth the price.

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

(yes I know, I also have some "Lemon" experience with MM)

Let the next buyer decide what they want. They want the looks and are willing to live with some issues they will buy it.

If they are lucky the issues will be minor niggles - if they are not lucky or if they are as ignorant and unsuspecting as I was - it could turn out to be falling nuts and bolts. Who knows - the next "sucker" could possible have it even worse. Who knows?

If they do not want to take this chance - they won't buy.

Knowingly or unknowingly this discussion only serves to validate my 3 points

Originally Posted by anda60213

a) Hard core offroaders don't want it (at least many of them find flaws in it wrt off roading capablities)

b) Lifestyle buyers have to pay a lot more than what it is truly worth

c) To make it on road worthy and off road worthy - you need to be Dhabhar Behram and spend money to make it what you want.

So let's say cheers to the next buyer (or should I say "sucker" depending on whether they get a car or a lemon?).

[headers]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

I had proved it on 25 June 2010 late evening during returning to Lonavla from EXAMM where a certain blue colored fully blown rally prepared Gypsy driven by a very competent and dear personal friend could not even keep up, let alone overtake! But for that you need IFS! You also need the tires! .

Sir, DB Sir, lets not get there - But since you started it...here it comes

You need 2 times the engine capacity to beat a vehicle with a puny 1.3 litre engine

Again, it took twenty years plus to beat a 80s japanese design!!

And, lets not forget that the driver was your personal friend, so maybe he did you a personal favor as a gratification of your hard work ?

And lets not forget the suspension geometry - The IFS vs SA has no correlation.

[slalom]

I guess BD is referring to the 1.6 gypsy which was fully blown up by Allan !
I have seen the youtube clip of the gypsy doing insane speeds but cant find it now .

As the Thar discussions are endless and interesting I'm wondering what is happening to the Thar .
I guess a recall for brake upgrade is on the cards ,(to save the face ) and as we have seen the Mhawk powered one with the scorpio instrument console etc ( as reported by motorbeam ) and Vinod Nookala's hint let's assume that they are revamping the Thar .
A little more better interiors and an MLD or LSD will be be great .

[rrsteer]

I wonder if this is the right thread to post. But since its getting a lot of action, I want to put up my query here. I have a need for a touring vehicle. A 2wd SUV -like the Safari- fulfills 90% of my needs, but for the remaining 10% of the times, a 4wd is almost necessary. I think Thar makes a good case for itself. But I would need to add seats at the back and a hard top. In which case I am tempted to ask isn't Scorpio 4wd LX a better proposition?

From the discussion here, I understand Thar may perform better on offroad trails, but not extraordinarily so. On all other fronts Scorpio LX just annihilates the Thar. So my question is why are people buying Thar and then investing so much money on hard top, better seats etc? Why don't they buy a Scorpio 4wd lx, which at the end may be as cheap or costly as the Thar? Is it just about the 'jeep' looks ( which I dont give a thought) or is the Thar significantly better in some way?

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

From the discussion here, I understand Thar may perform better on offroad trails, but not extraordinarily so. On all other fronts Scorpio LX just annihilates the Thar. So my question is why are people buying Thar and then investing so much money on hard top, better seats etc? Why don't they buy a Scorpio 4wd lx, which at the end may be as cheap or costly as the Thar? Is it just about the 'jeep' looks ( which I dont give a thought) or is the Thar significantly better in some way?

Hi rrsteer,

The Scorpio 4x4 cost 15Lakhs approx. Thar CRDe 9Lakhs approx.

Off-Road the thar has less body cladding to get damaged, and good power-to-weight as it is SWB & Soft-Top, compared to a scorpio.

I guess its a LIFESTYLE thing....Live Free....Live Young

Regards,

Arka

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

My question is why are people buying Thar and then investing so much money on hard top, better seats etc? Why don't they buy a Scorpio 4wd lx, which at the end may be as cheap or costly as the Thar?

Dear rrsteer - the answer is very simple. People buy Thar because it looks like Jeep. If it looked like anything else, people would not have bought it (we would not have made it in the first place)!

Dear all - way back in 2007, a prototype was made using all "systems and processes" perfectly but it looked like a "cockroach" (MM front, Bolero doors and Invader back, no foldable windscreen!). The intercooler was mounted where the winch should be, hoses jutting out of the wheel envelopes etc! HaHaHa! We threw the whole thingy out! What a glorious waste of time! Just imagine, if this thingy had made it into production, where would you guys fit the winch? Its time "they" understood and recognized who did what was required and who did RRTP (Right Royal Time Pass)!

Dear Anil - I saw your passion for the Jeep when we met so I am sad that your passion did not get realized. In order to filfill your passion, you had fitted absolutely ridiculous size and incorrect application tires, that too on 15 inch wheels, which had spoilt the vehicle dynamics completely. As a lay person, you are not expected to know this but you got right royally taken! Then you came back to production wheels and tires for which I believe you had to pay again. On top of that, Caster was low on the LH side. Car will pull to the side which has the lower caster. I just told you to correct Caster at a place who understands Caster and is willing to correct it, come back to production wheels, which you did and your car did not pull to the left. It was so simple and it cost you 500 rupees but as a lay person you are expected to get totally cheesed off, so I empathize with you. Further, the vehicle went dead on you because of the following reasons:

1. The battery cable terminal at the starter motor was loose.
2. Some bolts fell on your head.

For 1, factory has a system / process of using torque controlled power tools to perform this operation. They need to realize that after doing everything, it did not work for you. So, there is still a lacuna. The battery cable must be correctly oriented and it must not be allowed to rotate during terminal tightening. This is PCA (Permanent Corrective Action), which must be instituted and used 100%. On my Scorpio and Bolero, I had quietly done all this! .

For 2, all superstructure mounting bolts have size M6*1.0 with 8.8 grade bolts used for this application. It is necessary to conduct "poka yoke" (idiot proofing) by using nyloc nuts instead of flanged nuts. Even if they are left loose, the nyloc will prevent self rotation so nothing will fall on your head. I had recommended nyloc, some "cost reduction" exercise would have undone the recommendation, see what happened, bolts fell! Simple! Your passion finished! Again simple! .

Do people even think like this? Your guess is as good as mine! For the company, your vehicle failure constitutes 0.000001% failure rate. For you, it is 100% failure. It is indeed sad that in an excel file containing product issues, you as a customer have become a statistic!

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[XD2]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

I wonder if this is the right thread to post. But since its getting a lot of action, I want to put up my query here. I have a need for a touring vehicle. A 2wd SUV -like the Safari- fulfills 90% of my needs, but for the remaining 10% of the times, a 4wd is almost necessary. I think Thar makes a good case for itself. But I would need to add seats at the back and a hard top. In which case I am tempted to ask isn't Scorpio 4wd LX a better proposition?

From the discussion here, I understand Thar may perform better on offroad trails, but not extraordinarily so. On all other fronts Scorpio LX just annihilates the Thar. So my question is why are people buying Thar and then investing so much money on hard top, better seats etc? Why don't they buy a Scorpio 4wd lx, which at the end may be as cheap or costly as the Thar? Is it just about the 'jeep' looks ( which I dont give a thought) or is the Thar significantly better in some way?

As folks have pointed out in earlier posts, one of the driving reasons for many to go for a Thar is this 'Jeep thing'. For this group of enthusiasts, the option exists purely between going for a Thar or a rebuilt Jeep. The only vehicle which (may) fall into the category would be a wrangler, but it would be at a whole different price point.

For what you mention, the Scorpio 4wd would be the better option.