[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by gunbir

B&T

Interesting post... but before I post a reply (which I'm itching to...) I would like to hear what the others have to say...

Hey hey...not fair man. You were amongst the 1st guys I was expecting to hear from in addition to Navin, Sam, JB etc. Don't let me down guys!

[navin]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Brands/ models I have heard and emerged immensely satisfied with are (in no particular order)
1. JL Audio (Just when I thought they couldn't get any better, they sprung us the W7s!)
2. RE (I'll kill for a RE XXX sub, no jokes. The joke however is, which end of that sub goes in first? )
3. Focal (Utopian Blisssss)
4. Illusion Audio (Awesome fleet-footed, quarter-kilo pounders)
5. ID (Arguably, the best subwoofer brand EVER!)
6. Kicker Solobarics (before they went gay, erm.. square)
7. Phase Linear (Only the Aliante please!)

1. My car's an SUV (no last row seats or anything), so it's got loadsa space. I can accomodate a maximum of 3 12s without compromising enclosure size.
2. I would have about 1 - 1.5 kW of power
4. I like bass to be natural and flat. I listen to a very wide variety of music. Much of it is also trash. No boom, no stupid bass boost at 45Hz, just touch n go..

You've listed some super brands. Missed out on the Danes though. I think the SS Revelator mid-basses are 'bout the best I have heard (along with SEAS's Excel).

The Solobarics were great as they managed to produce reasonably deep bass in rather small boxes. Solobaric was a play on the word Isobaric. I remember them presenting a paper on this 15-20 years ago but I was about 8 vodkas down at that conference so cant reproduce the details.

I dont know much about SUV installs (in fact I am more of a home audio nut than car audio) but this what I would try and aim for.

3 way in the front using 6" midbasses in the door and a 2 way on the dash
matched to the same 2 way in the rear and 6 x 12" in a push push TL for the bass.

You know you can get good bass frrom just about every config but ported. If you ever have heard the Belle Klipsch powered by Rowland or Bud Fried's TL powered by a B&K you'd consider either horns or TL. in a car TL is easier to build.

If I had the budget I'd get SS, SEAS or Focal mid and hf and mate it to ID or RE subs.

[Sam Kapasi]

I'll tell you a secret B&T. I like you. And I dont offer you advice, because it doesnt look to me like you need advice. Seems to me you are very fit, sonically

[Bass&Trouble]

You've listed some super brands. Missed out on the Danes though. I think the SS Revelator mid-basses are 'bout the best I have heard (along with SEAS's Excel).

All the Scanspeak and Seas I've heard have been on home audio speakers. Never in a car. I think I'd seen some Rainbow products using the Seas drivers. Mind-numbing prices. Besides, I think I'm going to be content with the Coral comps, so the subwoofer is what I was most concerned about.

The Solobarics were great as they managed to produce reasonably deep bass in rather small boxes. Solobaric was a play on the word Isobaric. I remember them presenting a paper on this 15-20 years ago but I was about 8 vodkas down at that conference so cant reproduce the details.

Pitiful that they had to do the square thing. Nowadays you need 8 vodkas to pacify yourself if someone plays a solobaric in the same car as you are. Except that it gives you an unfair edge in the db drags cos for their published sizes have more cone area than all the round guys.

I dont know much about SUV installs (in fact I am more of a home audio nut than car audio) but this what I would try and aim for.

3 way in the front using 6" midbasses in the door and a 2 way on the dash
matched to the same 2 way in the rear and 6 x 12" in a push push TL for the bass.

You know you can get good bass frrom just about every config but ported. If you ever have heard the Belle Klipsch powered by Rowland or Bud Fried's TL powered by a B&K you'd consider either horns or TL. in a car TL is easier to build.

If I had the budget I'd get SS, SEAS or Focal mid and hf and mate it to ID or RE subs.

Wow, now a transmission line with isobarically loaded subs. This is sure going places. Hang on, gotta call my carpenter!

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I'll tell you a secret B&T. I like you. And I dont offer you advice, because it doesnt look to me like you need advice. Seems to me you are very fit, sonically

Thank you sir, had nothing to with being fit sonically. Surely people around here have listened to great brands and thought the feedback would be valuable. Also, I am not restricting feedback to just the brands I have named. I have listed them cos those are the only good ones I have heard. So please do not exercise restraint. Keep it coming.

[navin]

rainbow and SEAS Lotus seem good but since you are stuck on Coral and have given up the thought of using Yamamoto (see other thread) I would look at a ID or RE sub.

[Sam Kapasi]

It's not Yamamoto Navin, it's Yamato.

Ya ya, B&T you must try the Yamato

[navin]

Sam I am sorry. Still stuck in WWII era.

[Autophile]

Originally Posted by navin

I would look at a ID or RE sub.

If the requirement in bass is pure SQ then its ID. If it is SQL then its both ID and RE.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Although a sub may seem perfect on paper, it's a known fact that the best judgement lies with people who have heard and critically evaluated a wide range of subs for extended periods of time. I have heard most of the brands but never really had the flexibility to play with them, like using them in a multitude of boxes, trying them in different ported enclosures etc, listen to them for long periods etc.

1. JL Audio (Just when I thought they couldn't get any better, they sprung us the W7s!)
2. RE (I'll kill for a RE XXX sub, no jokes. The joke however is, which end of that sub goes in first?)
3. Focal (Utopian Blisssss)
4. Illusion Audio (Awesome fleet-footed, quarter-kilo pounders)
5. ID (Arguably, the best subwoofer brand EVER!)
6. Kicker Solobarics (before they went gay, erm.. square)
7. Phase Linear (Only the Aliante please!)

B&T now that everyone (i think Jb will post a reply soon) has replied, here is my take...

We have a tendency to play with multiple enclosures; small sealed, big sealed, ported, IB with all our subs. Typically, we have enclosures lying around we run different subs in our test car all the time. That car has seen more brands than most installers shops. Usually, we'll keep the 'experimental' sub+enclosure for a couple of days, throw 20-30 of our test CDs at it, before reaching a conclusion. That said, we give anything a try and some subs havent lasted 5 minutes cuz they sounded like dogturd.

Firstly, We have used and heard all of the above with the exception of the XXX and the Aliante. So my opinion of these two is only based on what I have heard of them from some stalwarts of the International ICE community...

1. JL Audio - Great subs in terms of build quality. Sound wise though we like the earlier versions of the lower series better than the current ones. The W6 are great SQ performers but when we ABX'ed with the iDMax the W6 lost out on low end and efficiency, where the iDMax clearly emerged as the better SQ sub and had more output too. The W7s are just smooth SPL and at that price, there are cheaper, better SPL subs around. Today, the W7s are more or less a status symbol.

2. RE - Well some of their subs are (were?) made for RE by iD. iD also make eD, Arc and others subs on ODM basis. Hmmm... the XXX is a SPL monster. It is not as quick as a w6 or an iDMax but has much more extension, insane power handling and is less efficient. RE XXX if you want huge amounts of thick sounding deep bass.

3. Focal - Again, smooth musical subs. But... bottom end could be better. Works very well with most 'good' music, but show limited bandwidth with hip-hop etc

4. Illusion Audio - fast, kick well, agile... lack low end grunt. Dont know how the new ones are though.

5. ID - The iDQs are a legend by all rights. And they deserve the accolades. For the price, we are yet to hear a more 'honest' sub. They will represent the music extremely well, with great fidelity, whether its classical, pop, rock or hip-hop. the iDv3 subs are a bit cheaper, and have more bottom end, better looks (to most people... though Jb and I love the oldskool look of the iDQ). The iDMax of course is another legend. Takes a crapper all over other SPL subs and mantains incredible SQ while doing so. for a super-sub, its very efficient too... works well with as less as 400w and takes upto 1000w. The iDMax has a unique ribbed low end output that brings a smile to your face.

6. Kicker Solobarics - Well apart from the advantage they have in sheer surface area, I didnt find much to write home about.

7. Phase Linear - The Aliante is a very good performer, articulate too... but I know people who have used these AND the iDMax but prefer the iD for better low end and more punch.

Three 12s in an SUV should work well. We recently heard an iDQ10 in a small sealed box in an Endeavour and it was very musical, and louder than I expected with just 150w. But then, its not gonna win any SPL competitions. With 1.5kw you could have great headroom and with 3 drivers driven sanely you will stay within the linear functioning area. Hmmm... there are quite a few subs that dont boom... however, a lot of those 'flat' subs dont represent the lower frequencies well. B&T, I know a lot of people expect me to say this... and trust me this is my honest opinion... You need to seriously consider iDQs or iDv3 subs. A lot of subwoofers nowadays do quite a few things well. But there are no others (at this price point) that do all the things the iDs do. Personally, for my listening tastes, I find the iDQs better than a lot of subs several times the price. While our listening tastes are similar, Jb differs from me on this, he prefers the Hertz Mille subs by a small margin.

Also, I agree with Navinji, I havent heard a really fast, agile Alum cone sub. This includes Audiobahn and Eclipse. While the Eclipse is far far better than the Audiobahn, it manages to miss my 'sweet spot' by a fair margin.

That said, I rely on Hoffmans Iron Law to predict (reliably most of the times, but there have been exceptions) subwoofer character when I compare parameters on paper. You should study the iD datasheets from their website and see if you can figure out what they've got right that the others havent. I dont know if its possible to duplicate the performance of any sub by replicating TS parameters but I wish you good luck and hope you come up with a great SQL driver.

[kb100]

HOLY $*&% GUNMAN....You musta worn out a couple of fingernails punching that out!!!.

IDQ12" s for me!!!

[Autophile]

I don't have anything to say after the Gunbir's post.

There are very few musical and SQ oriented subwoofers (some of them are already extinct).

Some of my favourites in order are :

1. Image Dynamics IDQ (Excellent all rounder, Flat bass response, the dream subwoofer for music lovers, very good SQ and SPL balance, it is one sub which suits and performs well with all kinds of music, my fav. IDQ 15)

2. Hertz Air Mille (Limited Production, All SQ but the low end is not there, i have heard no other subwoofer which is as fast as Air Mille, excellent for music with real instruments, integrates like anything, can only be used in ported and IB applications, my fav Mille ML3800 15")

3. Seas Lotus (Amazing SQ along with good SPL, very good subwoofers, very very close to IDQ, my fav SW300)

4. Velodyne (One of the best subs of all time, used to be quite expensive, came with servo controller, pity no longer made for cars, my favourite home sub brand though)

5. Dynaudio MW190 (Very musical but needs a freaking big box sealed box, for ported applications don't even ask)

6. JL Audio W6v2 (Good SQ but does not go that too low, insensitive, don't like the W7's, find them overrated)

7. Boston Pro 12.5LF (Good balance of SQ and SPL but no longer made, newer ones are crap)

[low_bass_makker]

so what next b&t sir...............

[sk456]

my 2 bit...

B&T the Kenwood Kcd-01 is also a mean SQ HU..is the same what you heard in my car... anote opti besides teh Clarion HX d2 could be a Nakamichi CD700II...
you also heard a IDQ-10 inch in my car.. the amplification i agree was lacking..but neverfthe less u saw what an IDQ 10 at even such little power could do....

[hydrashok]

Man! I read it all and my head is reeling! B&T, did you finally get it done?