Can't we produce clean bass in a car's cabin?

santosh.s · 17th July 2007, 09:25

I had an interesting discussion/debate with a guy on mouthshut.com regarding bass in cars. He tend to think that we can't produce clean bass in cars because cabin is too small as compared to bass wavelengths. I wanted to know what ICE Gurus thing about it. Refer to following link, and see the first comment onwards by "jukana" (this weired ID is mine) and the follow up with "kspv" who wrote the original review there (he is a tbhp member too, guess with the same ID):

Read comment on Advice on Choosing a Car Audio - MouthShut.com

Vivekphadnis · 17th July 2007, 12:44

Santosh, companies make speakers specifically for the car environment. They take into consideration several things while designing speakers for a car.
You should sit in JBL's demo car (the Eyeballer) to see how much bass can be produced in a car.

navin · 17th July 2007, 13:14

Vivek, you dont need a demo car, LBM's swift I'm told has decent bass too.

santosh.s · 17th July 2007, 13:24

Vivek/Navinji, yes, actually I am convinced enough that we CAN enjoy a lot of bass in cars, have experienced it on many occasions. You might have noticed (in case you had enough patience to read that link in its entirety

) that I was arguing against the person who says we can't do that.

My purpose of opening this thread was to go deeper into technical aspects and:

1. Cross check my understanding on the matter of "low frequencies inside small enclosed spaces" from experts here who eat, breathe and live ICE! (Because I tried, but could not find much information from other sources to support it)

2. Learn more on what exactly the problem is, what are the things to be taken care of and how are they tackled in car specific subs/speakers.

(BTW, I understand that, on an average, this is going to be a boring topic here. But I hope at least a few will like it and participate!)

skandyhere · 17th July 2007, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivekphadnis

Santosh, companies make speakers specifically for the car environment. They take into consideration several things while designing speakers for a car.
You should sit in JBL's demo car (the Eyeballer) to see how much bass can be produced in a car.

OT: which place do they have this setup in bangalore? can i know the address please?

navin · 17th July 2007, 13:45

santosh, boundraies only reinforce certain freq and their overtones (today these are called harmonics). That does not mean that one cannot produce 20hz in a room that is 10x10. One can but one would need careful placement of the speakers, and damping and diffusion to control the nodes and overtones.

Similarly for the car.

santosh.s · 17th July 2007, 13:51

So, how is a car sub different from home sub (Ignoring all electrical or environmental factors) ?

DerAlte · 17th July 2007, 15:09

OEO, IMHO there would be no difference if one were to treat them as "transducers", components (of a system) which have their own characteristics. Treated as systems, they are as different as chalk and cheese.

In HT discussions it is frequently said that very low frequency (the domain of subs) signals do not contribute to imaging. Slightly higher, at woofer level, that is untrue: you wouldn't like the "HT system" to make the sound of an explosion - spatially in front of you on the video - come from the side or behind. This is out pf place in car ICE, since there is no video reference, and sound stage (mid-bass+treble) is normally the spatial field in front of you (somehow, everyone just HAS to assume that musicians are ALWAYS bang in front of you, never to the left or right field or behind). Though my example sounds OT, I am giving an example of "systems" v/s "components".

System includes signal, content, and all transducers including ears and brain - with a rather maddening variety of interplay between these. We try to scientifically "model" at the component level to understand the system or to create good components (excpet our ears). Sometimes it works well, other times missing pieces make a mess of the picture.

There is always a relationship between components and system behaviour. Loosely put, one says "mediocre components can make a good system if they are matched well".

What Navin is talking "low frequency system" as opposed to your "low frequency transducer". In other threads also, discussion has gone for a toss when the differentiation, coupled with generalization, has spawned "parallel lines discussions". Why? Quite obviously one party is talking at system level, the other at component level - with the added complication that thinking is befuddled by frequent jumping between the two without realizing *that* fact.

I am sure others have more knowledge of the pieces in the modelling puzzle in the subwoofer debate, I am only trying to get the process right first.

So, OEO, lead, kindly light!

navin · 17th July 2007, 15:45

Actually I thought I was adressing santosh's query correctly.

Like I said earlier the reason we are able to produce bass that is lower than the wavelengths supported by the boundaries (in a car or in a home) is that we are
1. able to damp all resonance nodes and their overtones sufficiently enough for these low frequencies to be heard
2. have the amps and subs that can produce such low frequencies with a modicum of definition and power
3. we have specific passages in music that sound nicer if this "last octave" is present in some form.

Car audio equipment and Home Audio equipment are both as capable of this.

DerAlte · 17th July 2007, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

Actually I thought I was adressing santosh's query correctly... Car audio equipment and Home Audio equipment are both as capable of this.

Indubitably you did, Navin-ji, in your inimicable style.

I was talking about what happened after that: OEO asked "how is a car sub different from home sub (Ignoring all electrical or environmental factors)": sub as a component. Your answer was at system level. (Your last sentence in the above post is again at component level; sheesh, I am sounding conceited)

The difference actually causes other readers to go in different directions, as we have seen in a different thread. It is possible for 2 persons to be right at the same time, if they are on parallel tracks.

santosh.s · 17th July 2007, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAlte

OEO asked "how is a car sub different from home sub (Ignoring all electrical or environmental factors)"

Yes, I meant- what is so special about "car" subs that makes them better suitable for car's acoustics?

Point 2 in Navinji's post says that they are only required to produce moderate amount of power/definition. Is that the only differentiating point?

Regarding system versus components, I agree with you. However one needs to understand each component well before doing any "matching" at system level. Because otherwise you could be messing things up instead! And the best way to understand any component is to focus exclusively on it while isolating anything else, right?

BTW, DerAlte, when I said "a few will like it and participate", I was actually quite sure about you! Why are you calling me OEO, what does that mean?

rubin2006 · 17th July 2007, 16:55

I have heard enough bass from 10 meters away that it was enough to give heart attack to a old and average person , and by it i mean clean and clear bass i dont know what they guy had installed in his car ,other than that why re so expensive amps woofers and base tube/sub woofers used if you cant have good bass

low_bass_makker · 17th July 2007, 17:03

Hmm the differnce I think in a home audio and the car audio sub are..

Firstly the car audio sub are more robust built so that it can resist the beating of the hot environment of the car. Also the car audio subs are made to keep there enclosure volume less. or they can perform in smaller volumes boxes when compared to home audio. Since they are made for smaller boxes they have large excursion to make them loud and low at the same time. also there RMS rating are also quite high. than a normal home audio sub. Some Theile parameters are also different when compared to both

These are some general terms for layman person like me.

For more detailed one we have to wait for Ajay Bhai, Sam Bhai and Navin Ji to chip in.

DerAlte · 17th July 2007, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by santosh.s

one needs to understand each component well before doing any "matching" at system level. ...
Why are you calling me OEO, what does that mean?

(OEO = O Enlightened One!

I had explanied why elsewhere)

You are absolutly right, to get the system right, each component must be understood in isolation.

Even I am waiting for the gurus' knowledge and views on Subwoofer drivers (HT and ICE). Uee habh hard Nobhin-ji and LBM-da, now uee are oetting phor Gunobir and Clip-da and athars to shay shamtheeng. Hoeyar eej Sham?

roopakr · 17th July 2007, 18:21

Sam Bhai arent you hearing this....Please bring some clean BASS to this thread...

17th July 2007, 09:25	#1
santosh.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,077 Thanked: 70 Times View My Garage	Can't we produce clean bass in a car's cabin? I had an interesting discussion/debate with a guy on mouthshut.com regarding bass in cars. He tend to think that we can't produce clean bass in cars because cabin is too small as compared to bass wavelengths. I wanted to know what ICE Gurus thing about it. Refer to following link, and see the first comment onwards by "jukana" (this weired ID is mine) and the follow up with "kspv" who wrote the original review there (he is a tbhp member too, guess with the same ID): Read comment on Advice on Choosing a Car Audio - MouthShut.com
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 12:44	#2
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Santosh, companies make speakers specifically for the car environment. They take into consideration several things while designing speakers for a car. You should sit in JBL's demo car (the Eyeballer) to see how much bass can be produced in a car.
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 13:14	#3
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,306 Times	Vivek, you dont need a demo car, LBM's swift I'm told has decent bass too.
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 13:24	#4
santosh.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,077 Thanked: 70 Times View My Garage	Vivek/Navinji, yes, actually I am convinced enough that we CAN enjoy a lot of bass in cars, have experienced it on many occasions. You might have noticed (in case you had enough patience to read that link in its entirety) that I was arguing against the person who says we can't do that. My purpose of opening this thread was to go deeper into technical aspects and: 1. Cross check my understanding on the matter of "low frequencies inside small enclosed spaces" from experts here who eat, breathe and live ICE! (Because I tried, but could not find much information from other sources to support it) 2. Learn more on what exactly the problem is, what are the things to be taken care of and how are they tackled in car specific subs/speakers. (BTW, I understand that, on an average, this is going to be a boring topic here. But I hope at least a few will like it and participate!)
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 13:45	#6
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,306 Times	santosh, boundraies only reinforce certain freq and their overtones (today these are called harmonics). That does not mean that one cannot produce 20hz in a room that is 10x10. One can but one would need careful placement of the speakers, and damping and diffusion to control the nodes and overtones. Similarly for the car.
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 13:51	#7
santosh.s Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,077 Thanked: 70 Times View My Garage	So, how is a car sub different from home sub (Ignoring all electrical or environmental factors) ?
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 15:09	#8
DerAlte Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 8,069 Thanked: 2,919 Times	OEO, IMHO there would be no difference if one were to treat them as "transducers", components (of a system) which have their own characteristics. Treated as systems, they are as different as chalk and cheese. In HT discussions it is frequently said that very low frequency (the domain of subs) signals do not contribute to imaging. Slightly higher, at woofer level, that is untrue: you wouldn't like the "HT system" to make the sound of an explosion - spatially in front of you on the video - come from the side or behind. This is out pf place in car ICE, since there is no video reference, and sound stage (mid-bass+treble) is normally the spatial field in front of you (somehow, everyone just HAS to assume that musicians are ALWAYS bang in front of you, never to the left or right field or behind). Though my example sounds OT, I am giving an example of "systems" v/s "components". System includes signal, content, and all transducers including ears and brain - with a rather maddening variety of interplay between these. We try to scientifically "model" at the component level to understand the system or to create good components (excpet our ears). Sometimes it works well, other times missing pieces make a mess of the picture. There is always a relationship between components and system behaviour. Loosely put, one says "mediocre components can make a good system if they are matched well". What Navin is talking "low frequency system" as opposed to your "low frequency transducer". In other threads also, discussion has gone for a toss when the differentiation, coupled with generalization, has spawned "parallel lines discussions". Why? Quite obviously one party is talking at system level, the other at component level - with the added complication that thinking is befuddled by frequent jumping between the two without realizing that fact. I am sure others have more knowledge of the pieces in the modelling puzzle in the subwoofer debate, I am only trying to get the process right first. So, OEO, lead, kindly light!
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 15:45	#9
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,306 Times	Actually I thought I was adressing santosh's query correctly. Like I said earlier the reason we are able to produce bass that is lower than the wavelengths supported by the boundaries (in a car or in a home) is that we are 1. able to damp all resonance nodes and their overtones sufficiently enough for these low frequencies to be heard 2. have the amps and subs that can produce such low frequencies with a modicum of definition and power 3. we have specific passages in music that sound nicer if this "last octave" is present in some form. Car audio equipment and Home Audio equipment are both as capable of this.
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 16:55	#12
rubin2006 BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: delhi/calgary Posts: 286 Thanked: Once	I have heard enough bass from 10 meters away that it was enough to give heart attack to a old and average person , and by it i mean clean and clear bass i dont know what they guy had installed in his car ,other than that why re so expensive amps woofers and base tube/sub woofers used if you cant have good bass
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 17:03	#13
low_bass_makker Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Faridabad Posts: 6,815 Thanked: 305 Times View My Garage	Hmm the differnce I think in a home audio and the car audio sub are.. Firstly the car audio sub are more robust built so that it can resist the beating of the hot environment of the car. Also the car audio subs are made to keep there enclosure volume less. or they can perform in smaller volumes boxes when compared to home audio. Since they are made for smaller boxes they have large excursion to make them loud and low at the same time. also there RMS rating are also quite high. than a normal home audio sub. Some Theile parameters are also different when compared to both These are some general terms for layman person like me. For more detailed one we have to wait for Ajay Bhai, Sam Bhai and Navin Ji to chip in.
	() Thanks

17th July 2007, 18:21	#15
roopakr BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: KL-01,KL-07,KA-01 Posts: 135 Thanked: 3 Times View My Garage	Sam Bhai arent you hearing this....Please bring some clean BASS to this thread...
	() Thanks