[kapi]

Originally Posted by dicor

The most amazing item, by the way, is that 29 lakhs setup on a 15 lakh car, which literally burst out my eyeballs.

I have to wonder, for 44L, you can easily get a used lexus es300h with a 19 speaker mark Levinson system (which sounds incredible). Would that not be a better use for this much money?

[Emvi]

@flipflop

I have just one word to say - WOW!
And I have just one question to ask- Did you have a budget in mind when you set out to upgrade your audio system, or did you simply end up spending whatever it took without pre-planning?

[Yesterdaysnews]

Originally Posted by sivasiva

By the way can listening to music from such high end audio distract us while driving? Please don't mistake my asking this question.

I think it works the opposite. Listening to songs while driving keeps you calm, focused and more alert. You also experience far less fatigue at the end of long journeys. That’s my experience!

Originally Posted by kapi

I have to wonder, for 44L, you can easily get a used lexus es300h with a 19 speaker mark Levinson system (which sounds incredible). Would that not be a better use for this much money?

No stock systems can match up to high grade after market systems. I think my setup, which costs 1/3rd of FlipFlops will sound far better than any stock system, Lexus included.

Lots of mid range cars boast of Bose setups. But they are all thrash really. Manufacturers - even luxury cars, go all out to cut costs. And also, it’s very few people who’d actually need and appreciate super high end SQ audio like this, so doesn’t make sense for cars to come with super duper expensive setups from the factory!

It’s like this - most people who sit in FlipFlops car will go “whaaaat? Ok that’s decent sound, but 30 lakhs for this?? You are really mad!”
A few who really understand the nuances of sound and music will go “Man, that’s absolutely a bomb. Money well spent for sure!”

[svsantosh]

Post-1

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Nice car setup but I'd like to know why class A...

Post-2

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

....
As I mentioned...

2 posts relevant to the thread. Not that others commenting about 29Lacs is an issue but the thread title seemed to attract more money talk rather than tech talk.

Now, ReignOfChaos - Please educate us what is Class-A(B?) and what is good or bad of it in a high end set up such as this?

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by flipflop

I have always believed and treated my car as my solace, my own space, my escape and my quick vacation from the mundane - my absolute inner sanctum. And for me, the quality of music in my inner sanctum takes precedence and priorities over everything else. No matter the cost of the vehicle itself.

I just dropped my Jaw, popped my eyes, skipped some heartbeats and scracthed my head while reading about the Upgrade. When words fail, music speaks. That's a neat set-up. Congratulations

Some wise words - If you cannot pay the price, you cannot win the prize.

You have proved that dreaming with open eyes is an expensive passion.

Happy and Safe Revving.

[Mustang Sammy]

Man, you’d better drive the Sonet verrry carefully, with so much value added to it.
Jokes apart, congrats on pursuing your interest as far as you could.
Happy immersion in the music of your choice.
What are the most frequently played artists and songs in your car, by the way?

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Post-1



Post-2



2 posts relevant to the thread. Not that others commenting about 29Lacs is an issue but the thread title seemed to attract more money talk rather than tech talk.

Now, ReignOfChaos - Please educate us what is Class-A(B?) and what is good or bad of it in a high end set up such as this?

Single ended Class A is when a single active device is amplifying the entire signal - both positive and negative halves and there is only a single active device per channel in the amplifier. This is very pure in terms of quality and is sort of the holy grail. The drawback is that the bias current needs to be very high (at 0 level) and as a result even when there is no signal, there is a lot of energy wasted. An ideal Class A amp can only be at Max 25% efficient. Also these are typically low power - Max around 20-25W.

The alternative is class B or AB(most common) where two devices amplify the signal in a push pull arrangement where one device amplifies the positive half and the other the negative half.

Class AB is the most common and much more efficient than class A.

Finally these days there are lots of switching or class D amps that use pulse width modulation to amplify signals This is the most common in car audio especially with subwoofers.

[keroo1099]

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Just saw your dsp does A/D and D/A conversion of everything. So the player doesn't matter at all. Just feed it a digital signal via SPDIF.

If your player supports that, use it else find a player with SPDIF outputs. The analog outputs of your player are utterly pointless in this setup.

I see your point, use the DAP as a transport and let the DSP do the D/A conversion. I assume high end DAPs have various output options?

I too wondered how the amps could run in Class A without an additional power source or supercaps, plus the car would become an oven with the heat generated.

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by keroo1099

I see your point, use the DAP as a transport and let the DSP do the D/A conversion. I assume high end DAPs have various output options?

I too wondered how the amps could run in Class A without an additional power source or supercaps, plus the car would become an oven with the heat generated.

Yes if a A/D conversion of all incoming signals is happening anyways, there is zero point from a fidelity perspective to send an analog signal anymore unless one just likes a particular color or flavor to their sound. Makes no sense to me but would to some I guess.

Amps can't run in class A in a car. It's impossible. The amount of energy and heat will not be manageable. It's mostly pointless too considering how much ambient noise there is in a car.

[vjbox]

Flipflop, that is some serious audio power in a car! I claim myself to be an Audiophile and I am shocked at the level of equipment and finesse that has gone in.

One thing I couldnt quite digest is the fact that you decided to plonk nearly 30 lacs worth of Audio Equipment into a car costing half of it. Wonder what the equation was here ? I mean combined you have spend nearly 50 lacs on this car. What stopped you from getting a higher segment car if you any way have the purchasing power. Was the Audio upgrade an after thought. Again, I know you could have your own rationale here but I am curious.

I always regarded the B&W system on the Volvos the holy grail of Car audio and I would love to hear your setup and find out how it surpasses that. I am sure it would and it should! I am based in Chennai and I would love to hit you up to have a listen.If you happen to be around the Mount Road/ Anna Salai area sometime, would love to meet up!

[kaviprem]

Originally Posted by keroo1099

I see your point, use the DAP as a transport and let the DSP do the D/A conversion. I assume high end DAPs have various output options?

I too wondered how the amps could run in Class A without an additional power source or supercaps, plus the car would become an oven with the heat generated.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Yes if a A/D conversion of all incoming signals is happening anyways, there is zero point from a fidelity perspective to send an analog signal anymore ...

Guys, Any DSP will NOT perform Digital to Analogue conversion for the Analogue inputs [like 3.5mm, RCA stereo, Balanced].
The DAC response from the OP was to me in the context of USB HD Audio interface. It allows you to connect your Phone via lightining/Type-C to USB cable thus the DSP having DAC makes sense.

[-xplora-]

Your rig is super no doubt.

However between a good kit costing say one fourth of this kit, what is the perceivable fidelity difference ?

Have you / the installer done an acoustic test of ambient noise in the car when idle and when at say 60..80kmph ?

Is there any active cancellation involved that solves this specific aspect at 192k or higher ? Any lower standard filters wont work, and it needs to have uber sensitive multi mic / sensor rig to capture that sound accurately in the first place to even start to eliminate it, and then a set of inverse sounding speakers to cancel the wave patterns.

Cause when we are talking about pure fidelity level of rigs then the usual suspects are environmental rather than source / amplification, considering this is a Kia even more so ( I know it has top-notch damping and insulation done) but still:

- Ambient noise at idle
- Ambient / Road-Tyre noise in motion
- ICE and mechanical noise
- Electro Magnetic interference to other devices ( I understand the rig will be shielded )
- Air conditioning noise of the car

All these sounds reach our ears along with the Actual Audio we want to listen to..

So my two cents are expectations have to be realistic in a car as the environment is not designed for Fidelity. The other noises / sounds / vibrations / interference overplay the slight improvement in fidelity by spending a lot more and getting a better rig.

PS: By no means my intension is to downplay what you have done in the car its commendable, and definitely a first on the forum for the skewness on the audio rig vs car thing. I am asking these questions to understand the process behind it and the solutions that your installer provided to mitigate these issues for the benefit of the forum.

Also I tend to agree with ReignofChaos an SPDIF from Cayin to DSP is much more logical unless you want to do some studio grade accoustic coloration, but for that you will need an analog processor in between which is moot for a car that size and battery that size.

Originally Posted by flipflop

The cayin has track change physical buttons on the side so changing tracks is actually easy. Contemplating where to get it mounted though
I use Apple Music sir. By mistake I typed out Amazon



I did happen to read the entire comment before it got removed. Each entitled to our own opinions but.. whatever I will let it pass.. peace


The power circuitry in ground zero is actually good. When in full class A mode, I Dont know about the wattage but there was a very evident change in sound signature

My source is Cayin yes. But cheap? I beg to differ. The cayin n8ii I have is 3,00,000 and I think it’s much better than a few so claimed SQ HU.
And sir, hence, I feel there is no garbage in/out here 😂

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by kaviprem

Guys, Any DSP will NOT perform Digital to Analogue conversion for the Analogue inputs [like 3.5mm, RCA stereo, Balanced].
The DAC response from the OP was to me in the context of USB HD Audio interface. It allows you to connect your Phone via lightining/Type-C to USB cable thus the DSP having DAC makes sense.

Not sure what you mean by that. A DSP operates in digital domain - any analog incoming signal will automatically be converted to digital to do any processing. Not sure where the confusion is.

The USB interface is probably just a USB to SPDIF converter. The DSP only accepts analog input and SPDIF.

[navin]

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

As I mentioned there is no class A

There seems to be a bias switch which increases the bias current. Still no mention of class A..

Originally Posted by flipflop

The cayin has track change physical buttons on the side so changing tracks is actually easy.

Originally Posted by flipflop

The amp is class A biased.. it’s not pure class A.

Originally Posted by reignofchaos

Single ended Class A is when a single active device is amplifying the entire signal - both positive and negative halves and there is only a single active device per channel in the amplifier.

1. I have heard several Cayin products (not the source that Flip Flop has but others) and they are quite good. People tend to have a poor opinion of "Chi-Fi" but like anything, if it is made well, it doesn't matter where it is made.

2. The manual states:

"The BIAS-Setting controls the operation mode of the amplifier.
It is continuously adjustable from MIN = Class AB to MAX = Class A. The sound is warmer in Class A mode and more firm
and direct at Class AB mode. Please note that the current consumption and the heat build-up is higher in Class A mode.
The Power rating will not change dependend on BIAS-Setting."

Note: I have not corrected spelling or grammar in the above quote to preserve the quote.

The part of this statement that surprises me is the last sentence. Given that when any transistor is biased into "Class A," it is carrying a lot more continuous current and hence running a lot hotter, most amplifier manufacturers de-rate their amplifiers depending on the bias current. ReignOfChaos is correct in stating that Single-Ended Class A is the least efficient form of power stage. But these amplifiers are not Single-Ended.
Just so we are on the same page, this is what I refer to as "Single-Ended" and "Push-Pull".
https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/...gle-ended-mean

Amplifiers that are normally biased at "100W RMS - Class AB" would be "de-rated" by the manufacturer to be "10W RMS - Class A". This is typically what Nelson Pass (aka Threshold and Pass Labs) used to do.

Either Single-Ended or Push-Pull amplifiers can be biased to operate in Class A. The circuit's topology has no relevance to the bias current used here. See this explanation below.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/t...ration.248363/

It is obvious that these Ground Zero Amplifiers are Push-Pull, and the bias current can be varied to run the transistors cooler (Class AB) or hotter (Class A). The only part I do not get is how the manufacturer can claim to deliver the same power, regardless of bias. The only way they can do this is if the heat dissipation is so efficient that it is designed for Class A.

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by navin

It is obvious that these Ground Zero Amplifiers are Push-Pull, and the bias current can be varied to run the transistors cooler (Class AB) or hotter (Class A). The only part I do not get is how the manufacturer can claim to deliver the same power, regardless of bias. The only way they can do this is if the heat dissipation is so efficient that it is designed for Class A.

I respect your opinion on Cayin but having heard them a few times, I feel with a setup like this, one can do better.

As for the above, the entire class A thing seems to be a whole load of (pardon the phrase) bovine excrement. I really doubt they would be running beyond 3-5W if at all in class A. You need super high quiescent current for functioning in class A which will drain the car battery pretty quickly.