[gotzuk]

Hi,
I need advise on choosing a ICE setup for a Nissan Xterra.
Rock, Death metal and Progressive would be predominant genre of music played.
The car has a double din head unit installed so a 2DIN replacement unit is required.
I was looking at something like an Alpine iXA W404 or a Blaupunkt New Jersey MP68/600i.
What other head unit can be a good choice in the sub US$500 range?

For the front and rear speakers both located in the door panels, the choice has been narrowed down to Focal 130 VRS or Focal 130 KP. Which one is better?
What other speakers can/should be considered?

The blank area is the amplifier and the sub woofer choice.
Went through some threads here but still clueless about what to go in for.

Thanks
Vaibhav

[gotzuk]

Bump

Nobody has any opinions to give??

[pranava999]

Today being a Sunday, the gurus are on holiday . Am sure you will see a lot more responses during office hours tomorrow .

[jithudigitised]

Whats you budget regarding the amps and sub.

[navin]

Originally Posted by gotzuk

Rock, Death metal and Progressive would be predominant genre of music played.
The car has a double din head unit installed so a 2DIN replacement unit is required.
I was looking at something like an Alpine iXA W404 or a Blaupunkt New Jersey MP68/600i.
What other

Focal 130 VRS or Focal 130 KP. Which one is better?
What other speakers can/should be considered?

2 DIN HU: I'd take the Alpine over the MP68. A 3rd alternate would be the Pio AVH4100. I'm told it has a beautiful user interface.

As to the difference between the 130KP and 130VRS I dont think anyone on the forum has heard both. Even if they have it would up to you to choose something that suits your taste. Focal is a reputed brand and hence you should do well with either. Other alternates are Alpine SPX, Boston Pro, JBL Gti, DLS Ultimate, JL AUdio (I am sure they have sometihng in this price range), Morel OVation and Dynaudio 220 (the most power hungry of the lot). Each of these is well built, each ahs a distinct signature, at this price point you should not buy without a lot of listening.

as far as a subwoofer and amps go... you can stick the same brands as above (for the speakers). JL, JBL GTi, Alpine SWX, etc... all make good subs. A pair of 12" subs or maybe even a single 15" will do the job.

For the amps I'd recommend either 2 4ch. amps (if you are looking at 2 x 12" subs) or a monoblock and a 4 ch. amp. Of the 4 ch. amps I like the Audison VRx (4300 I think), Steg K4.2, DLS Ultimate, JL audio, etc.. think 150Wx4 or 350Wx2 (bridgfed). For the monoblock think 750W+ from the above mentioned companies.

[gotzuk]

Navin,
Thanks for the tips.
As for the sub, would a single 500w 12 inch be sufficient?
Or would it be better to have two 8/10 inchers?

[navin]

in theory 2 8" woofer have about the same surface area of a single 12" but in practice they do not go as low. If you do not have space for a single large woofer but can find 2 nooks or cranies for smaller woofers you can use 2 smaller woofers. However today (the last 5-10 years) has seen the developemnt of woofers specificlaly for car audio use (woofers that can produce bass in small boxes). These woofers may not sound good in your home but in the car they work well. Image Dynamics for example makes a 12" woofer that can be put in a box of less than 1 cu. ft. (28 liters).

One more thing the wattage numbers specified by most speaker manufacturers mean nothing. These are thermal ratings and do not tell much as far as the speakers phycical limits are concernend. When looking at a woofer the specs to consider ar Fs, Fas, Qts, Bl, Mms, Le, Cms and Xmax (linear one way - many manufacturers specifiy peak to peak you can divide this number by about 4 to get the linear one way number).

These numbers will tell you how a wofoer will perfrom the box you have and how efficient they are in reproducing the various bass frequencies.

[Invinsible]

In addition to what Navin has mentioned would also like to add, the enclosure size and type would also matter. Enclosure for sub is equally imp as the sub. After all only when the sub is in a given enclosure will it perform better.

Two 8" can go as loud as a single 12". The enclosure size could be considered in such a way that dual 8" can go as low as 12". But than again it also depends on sub and its T/S parameters. Some dual 8" or 10" can go louder and deeper than a single 12" too in a given enclosure type, provided the enclosure is done in the right size.

For instance a dual 8" ID8V3 sub can be made to have smooth linear low end extension. For instance here's what Eric Stevens, owner of Image Dynamics had to say about dual ID8v3 setup, " The ID8 will play low and you would think it was an 10 or 12" actually. I do recommend a little larger enclosure though for best performance in the 20 to 40 range. I recommend .35 cuft per subwoofer with polyfil. In .25 each they will have decent low bass but be a little dry.The IDq10 V2 would be in its optimum enclosure with .55 and the V3 would need to be very well stuffed with polyfill and would be on the small side of volume. The id10 v3 would be probably your best choice at this volume of our current subwoofers, it is actually quite like the IDQ and better than the V.2 in most ways.You will get good results no matter which way you decide. I would steer you towards the 8" if you can increase the volume or if not towards the IDQ10V3 or ID10V3"

In theory 8" can be made to go low, but as Navin mentioned there are other parameters that too come into play. A 10" or 12" will have a better overall balance and tonal quality.
If you can go in for dual 10" or 12" would be great in sealed. It doesn't look like space should be an issue for you. If an enclosure volume that gives out a Qtc of .9 is considered overall response can be low and tight, again depending on the Sub you choose. Since cars can have a cabin gain of upto 10db in frequencies below 30hz one can always choose a slight smaller enclosure against to the required size with added polyfill.

Regarding the power output well it all depends how much of bassline are you looking at. For some even 150RMS in a good designed enclosure is good enough to fill in the cabin with its low end response and match up with rest of the music. It all comes down to matching the bassline with the volume at which speakers are playing and personal preference. Anything upto 250 is good. Going up from 250rms to 500 will give about 3 db rise in volume and from 500 to 1000rms another 3db.
And ya a dual sub setup can work more efficiently as compared to the single sub setup.
What's your preference?

[gotzuk]

Originally Posted by jithudigitised

Whats you budget regarding the amps and sub.

The original budget has been increased manyfold by now
Now I am thinking of installing the HU, front and rear components and a 4 channel amp
and putting in the sub/monoblock combination later on.

Originally Posted by Invinsible

In addition to what Navin has mentioned would also like to add, the enclosure size and type would also matter. Enclosure for sub is equally imp as the sub. After all only when the sub is in a given enclosure will it perform better. .... Regarding the power output well it all depends how much of bassline are you looking at.
What's your preference?

A tight and fast bass producing setup is what I would prefer, not the "overpowering the rest of the music" type.
I also looked at the Stealthbox series by JL Audio, which looked really interesting as I dont lose out on space at all.
They have one for the Xterra with a 12W 3V3-4 sub with the following rating:

Fs: 26.72hz
Qes: 0.472
Qms: 7.572
Qts: 0.444
Vas: 80.54 litres
Xmax: 0.510 inch/ 13.0mm
Reference Efficiency: 0.313%
Efficiency 1w/1m: 87.15 db SPL
Sd: 80.600 sq. inch
Re: 3.563 ohm
Znom: 4 ohm
Pt: 500w
Driver Displacement: 2.01 litres

The specs are rocket science to me, though. What do they mean?

[navin]

Originally Posted by Invinsible

Enclosure for sub is equally imp as the sub.

Some dual 8" or 10" can go louder and deeper than a single 12"

1. exactly. in my view an encloure is often MORE important than the sub. The reason I say this is to lay emphasis on that part of the subwoofer system (driver-box-amp) that I find most often neglected.

2. all things remaining equal same design, quality of parts used, etc.. the 12" will have a lower Fs than the 8". Lets not compare a IDQ 8" to a Pio 307.

I am currently experimenting with a 9" SS subwoofer that can go as low as 25Hz -6db point (measured Fs is about 22Hz) in 40 liters. If you ask the gurus (liek Dan Wiggins etc.) they will tell you give us the parameters and we can dial in a woofer (within reason) having those parameters. Computers have gotten awful powerful today and control & availability of raw materials have become much better since the 70s and 80s when this is often trial and error.

Originally Posted by gotzuk

The original budget has been increased manyfold by now

A tight and fast bass producing setup is what I would prefer, not the "overpowering the rest of the music" type.
I also looked at the Stealthbox series by JL Audio, which looked really interesting as I dont lose out on space at all.
They have one for the Xterra with a 12W 3V3-4 sub with the following rating:

Fs: 26.72hz
Qes: 0.472
Qms: 7.572
Qts: 0.444
Vas: 80.54 litres
Xmax: 0.510 inch/ 13.0mm
Reference Efficiency: 0.313%
Efficiency 1w/1m: 87.15 db SPL
Sd: 80.600 sq. inch
Re: 3.563 ohm
Znom: 4 ohm
Pt: 500w
Driver Displacement: 2.01 litres

The specs are rocket science to me, though. What do they mean?

Typical middle of the road specs. Not to insensitive, good Xmax, a Qts that says sealed box. What is the Bl, Mms and Le? Stuff the specs into one of those online T/S calulators (there are a dozen on the net but I am not the Googlemiester - where is LBM anyway?) and you will get a box. Keep the Qtc of the box between 0.7 and 0.9 for a car. Add 2 liters to the box volume (Driver displacement) and voila.

BTW I have heard the JL13W7. JL makes good subs.

[Invinsible]

Reg the JLAUDIO SUB >
Efficiency Bandwidth Product suggest that it can be played both in sealed and ported.
As for the sealed enclosure volume, if you go by Qtc .707 it would require enclosure volume of 1.7cu.ft. with low end extension going below 20hz at -14db. With Qtc .9 it gives out .83 cu.ft enclosure volume. Qtc .707 is considered for better low end and linear response through out the freq cut off and is best suited for home audio where the room is much larger compared to the cars and in some case even .577 is considered. Incase of sub performance in car it's best to have a sub in enclosure with Qtc above .85 as in car enviroment there is always a cabin gain as I mentioned earlier upto 10 db. At times having too much of low end around 20hz could make the sub sound more sloppier and may not be to everyone's liking.
With JL audio sub I would suggest to go in for enclosure size of .85 cu.ft to 1 cu.ft.
What I would like to know is what is the enclosure size that it comes with ?
Jl audio W3 subs are good along with W6 but they tend to have more thicker bassline.
What kinda music you like? I would steer you towards the Boston Acoustics G5 sub. Well engineered product, higher sensitivity, meaning would sound louder to and overall better sounding sub against the JL. Again it all comes down to what sought of music you listen more often. Musical bass is more in range above 30hz with some going down to 20hz. There are many more choices that could fit in as per the music you listen and how you want the sub to sound.

[gotzuk]

Originally Posted by Invinsible

What kinda music you like? I would steer you towards the Boston Acoustics G5 sub. Again it all comes down to what sought of music you listen more often. Musical bass is more in range above 30hz with some going down to 20hz. There are many more choices that could fit in as per the music you listen and how you want the sub to sound.

Rock/Death Metal would be predominant genre of music played.
I don't know if its the right question to ask but would a sub capable of going down to 20 Hz sound boomy?

Originally Posted by navin

Keep the Qtc of the box between 0.7 and 0.9 for a car. Add 2 liters to the box volume (Driver displacement) and voila.

BTW I have heard the JL13W7. JL makes good subs.

Originally Posted by Invinsible

With JL audio sub I would suggest to go in for enclosure size of .85 cu.ft to 1 cu.ft.
What I would like to know is what is the enclosure size that it comes with ?
Jl audio W3 subs are good along with W6 but they tend to have more thicker bassline.

I do not know the volume/enclosure size of the Stealthbox.
No info is given on the JL Audio website apart from it being a sealed enclosure and of fiberglass construction.
No info about it in the owners manual either.
Here is the link to it Nissan Xterra Stealthbox by JL Audio

This is how it would look once fitted
[Pic Courtesy: www.clubxterra.org]

[navin]

Originally Posted by Invinsible

Efficiency Bandwidth Product suggest that it can be played both in sealed and ported. With JL audio sub I would suggest to go in for enclosure size of .85 cu.ft to 1 cu.ft.

What is Vb for the a ported box with say an Fb of 30Hz? The way I see it the sub is really a sealed box sub the specs allow for a theoretical ported box but...:-)

Yes a sealed box around 1 cu. ft. would work well.

Originally Posted by gotzuk

I don't know if its the right question to ask but would a sub capable of going down to 20 Hz sound boomy?
No info is given on the JL Audio website apart from it being a sealed enclosure and of fiberglass construction.

1. You dont need 20Hz for Death Metal. InsRange.htm

2. You can get a FG box made to order that is similar to the box in your picrture. My Octy, my wife's ANHC and my mom's NHC all have a similar box. It uses little of the trunk space and we can still fit a 30" bag in the trunk along with a few smaller bags. what we have done is put the amps on the side of trh trunk that has the fuel tank and teh sub on the side that does not. In fact we restricted our amp choices to those that would fit in this space.

[Invinsible]

Originally Posted by navin

What is Vb for the a ported box with say an Fb of 30Hz? The way I see it the sub is really a sealed box sub the specs allow for a theoretical ported box but...:-)

Navinji I would need Fs, Qts, Vas parameters for calculating the ported VB with FB of 30hz.
From the picture it seems like the enclosure could be in size of around .75 cu.ft.


GOTZUK@ For a music like that you could do with a dual 10" setup in sealed or single 12" ported with freq falling upto anywhere 30hz +/-. Which all means you can afford to go for slightly smaller enclosure than the normal.
The JL audio Sub that you mentioned has RMS value of 300.
Boomy sound comes it play when the sub can handle being crossed higher. Some subs can play good and tight upto 60hz beyond that they tend to get boomy and the midbass freq tries to flow in. Some sub can play clean even when crossed upto 100-125hz. It also matters with the size of enclosure. A larger enclosure with Qtc below 0.85 can sound more linear as compared to smaller enclosure with higher Qtc value, which means there will be a certain peak at freq above 70hz or so. Also, it's the characteristics or the other parameters that come into play when one is talking about the sub sounding boomy.

What components and amplifier are looking for that can help determining the sub as you mentioned you don't want the sub to overpower the front drivers?