Team-BHP (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/)

-   Commercial Vehicles (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commercial-vehicles/)

-   -   Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commercial-vehicles/163578-indian-naval-aviation-air-arm-its-carriers-11.html)

The working and efficacy of IFF is a function of the quality of your software, the tightness of your codes and the secure-ness of your radio signals. Regardless of whether the hardware is Russian, Indian, French or American it will be software tuned to our IFF codes. Where some hardware is needed it will be fitted in. ‎We to best of my limited knowledge on this make/assemble our hardware.

‎Just like a radio transmitter-receiver made in Russia can communicate (say on a civil int'l shipping frequency) with an American made one similarly....

Incase you were wondering, the target will not be the actual aircraft mentioned, there will be decoy / drone towed along which acta as the target.

And in case your query was about an inaccurate bullet / missile hitting the actual aircraft, yes it sounds scary.

I remember as a child seeing aircraft towing a balloon/chute sort of contraption around Tilpat (now part of thickly populated Delhi NCR) Faridabad. The anti aircraft guns would target this and we could hear the boom all day long when army practice was held.

I recently had the fortune to visit one of the retired, legendary Tu 142 M. This decommissioned airframe is kept on display inside a Naval Base near Chennai. Quite an awe-inspiring visit I should say.

During its days, even on the penultimate year just before it was decommissioned, these legends dominated the skies in all Theatre Level Exercises.

However, as these ladies aged gracefully and as the swanky new P8Is filled the tarmacs, they were ceremoniously decommissioned; and they left behind a legacy of its own.
Salutes to the mighty props!!!

Thank you for sharing. Lovely shots. The Tu-142M was quite the classic example of Soviet aeronautical engineering at its best. The thrashing roar of its props always represented power to me more than the shrieking of a reheat turbojet. I always wondered about the lonely vigil of tail end Charlie manning those 23mm twins.

I believe one is being set up as a museum at Vizag.

Interestingly the IL-38's which are 10 years older are still in service albeit with modernizations.

Video on the Tu-142M's with the good old IN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJbat3GZxWo

The boy in me could not resist posting these photos of my Tupolev. This a Tu-95 a close cousin of our Tu-142Ms. The 142s were derived from the 95s featuring a wider fuselage.

Drag race between IN Mig 29K and Lamborghini Huracan P.

Though I feel something like this is pointless from timings point of view, a video with two high performance machines is interesting.

https://youtu.be/ADzQlyrRG2A

Fascinating news just before bed time -
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...lizabeth-class

TL: DR
-BAE Systems have been in talks with an IN delegation for some time now about the possibility of the Queen Elizabeth Class design being offered as a potential basis for the future circa 75000ton Indian "supercarrier"

Pros:
-compared to the alternatives it's proven in a manner of speaking, in that the HMS QE is actually at sea and has been commissioned so clearly by the time India would get any such vessel, we could expect a lot of the niggles in the class to be worked out
-unlike when Sevmash screwed the pooch with the INS Vikramidtya, Rosyth shipyards are a known quantity (plus Russian carriers were mainly done in Ukrainian yards and well..that ain't happening anymore..) The Americans don't have anything in the size we're looking for, neither do the French or the Italians as of now
-again, vis a vis the Russians, I would safely assume Indian companies would find a far easier time doing business with the Brits given their track record and general standing as a fairly sensible place to work. Ah but Brexit you say!
-on that note, I think it would work in our advantage. Remember in the aftermath when PM May led a delegation to India basically cap in hand as her first overseas tour? Telling I think. Any such deal would be a huge win for the UK as regardless of if major parts are license built in India a lot of UK jobs for decades to come will likely be created and sustained during the operational lifetime of an Indian QE class derivative. (also I find it amusing that once again largess from the subcontinent would be used to prop up institutions in the creaking remains of empire)
-historical symmetry. India was ushered into the carrier age with a former British carrier with the original INS Vikrant. How fitting would it be if IN were to enter the supercarrier era with another British design?

Cons
-the current HMS QE is severely lacking in any self defence. India would most definitely have to add layers of such subsystems - which of course adds complexity but we did have to do that with Barak systems on our own Vikramaditya so surely some lessons to be applied there
-STOBAR or CATOBAR: the HMS QE class itself underwent a very prolonged debate in this regard. It was changed pretty late in the day. India wants to have a return to CATOBAR operations again (hence the design studies with the US for their EMALS or electromagnetic systems on the new Ford class - a nightmare so far to put it mildly). Again this would depend on the air wing India hopes to deploy and we all know India adopts the thali/piecemeal approach to defence procurement, rarely if ever is there a synergistic plan.
But lets say we stuck with a STOBAR in the mould of our existing carriers. The QE would have to be adapted as its designed for the VTOL F-35B. So we need to add arrestor cables. Also we probably don't need what I assume is a highly heat strengthened deck as it won't receive a downward jet blast presumably.


All in all I'm quite the fan of this idea. Much like Indian naval design took an existing original hull form and iterated it subsequently over decades to the point we can now to a large extent build our own capital ships, I think leveraging an existing design like the HMS QE, while not mature, still functioning without too many hiccups, would be a prudent choice to accelerate our plans for a 75000 ton class flat top. It would tie us closer to the RN who obviously have touted increased focus on operations in the eastern sphere, and along those lines it would mean IN aviators and seamen could have direct compatriots to train with and share best practices. Who knows maybe we could have our aviators cross deck! We've already seen the benefits with our P-8 Poseidons which have become part of the vibrant Poseidon user community globally as well.

Interesting to hear the thoughts of the others

Thank you for sharing this news. The British i.e. the Royal Navy on the whole design ships that are good or very good with an emphasis on stability, sea-keeping, endurance and damage sustainability. They are also known for innovation and firsts. The QE is the only truly modern conventionally powered carrier around and is a design that will mature in the next year or two as they test her and make modifications. While in some aviation defence contracts in the 1970s the British did not play fair to the spirit of the contract I believe those days are gone and attitudes have changed at their end and confidence and negotiating acumen has improved at our end. Think of it - how many clients for a 75,000 tonne carrier design are out there? Given that with regard to carrier aviation , as in space & missile technology development, we have kept a 75 year long lens view I would say if we bought the design and sought technical collaboration it would be a boost for the Indian Navy for the next 50 to 70 years.

The Russians, sadly are in decline at least as far as carrier aviation is concerned. The French & British we can depend on as now we would deal as equals. The Americans one can never be sure of in matters of geo-politics. As a reader of geo-politics since the early 1970s I do not trust them to keep their word. They even ditched the British more than once on nuclear matters and on one very big occasion cheated the British on nuclear technology - hard facts - that's how they treat their best friend. That is where even today Russia and China (and for us the French) are different. If they are with you, they are with you. Where strategy and long term thinking with regard to carriers goes I am cross posting from my old thread on the Hawker Seahawk. While there are pieces of British policies I don't agree with the fact is they taught us most of what we know about carrier aviation and we have been their biggest customer for their naval aviation products for the last 2 generations {Vikrant, Viraat, Sea Harriers, Sea Hawks, Sea Kings, Islanders, Shorts Sealand}

PS: Will some one tell the Chief of Naval Staff that we need a more creative name than Vishal for our next carrier

I agree. Regardless of the faults like the broken stabilising brace on the main drive shaft that was discovered during sea trials for example (again that's the whole point right?) I think the QE has had a relatively smooth transition to service as far as these large scale capital ships go. For sure there was all the political wrangling over its final format but the actual hardware now is at a stage where it can only mature. If India were to go in on this deal it would be a huge win for both the UK and India. With another user, it would bring costs down for both in terms of maintenance and development. Besides with more ships in the class the training opportunities would be far greater. Considering both sides are cash strapped, or let's put it this way, have to be prudent in how they manage the pot surely this is a no brainer. So yes, you're right. We would get locked in on a platform for the next half century at least but it'll be an up to date one for once and not an older generation model. Plus who knows, maybe with an Indian QE class, and the US Marine Corps already running ops on board it might finally spur the Americans to invest in their own sub type as they struggle to maintain their congressionaly mandated 12 supercarrier fleet (especially with the problems the Ford class continues to face).

I know you have been reticent about the Americans always, and to some extent the Brits but now like you said, circumstances preclude them from trying to be clever here. A fair deal is a mega deal for them and a huge relief to many of the dockyard workers. Russia has always been clever about making the best use of their limited assets but they were never a carrier force to be reckoned with and now that the only shipyards that had that Soviet era expertise are on the wrong side of Donbass count them out entirely. France is an interesting case. I genuinely think they might perk up if they hear about an Indian QE derivative considering they had thought of their own QE derivative to replace the Charles De Gaul. It's interesting here because the French would want a nuclear CATOBAR rather than the VTOL config the Brits currently have. India obviously would like everything at this juncture but I wonder what lay out would be best for us. I'm not sure we really have a need for a nuclear powerplant - even considering the power demands of EMALS catapults that we Do want. But immediately you start to see how an Indian deal opens the door for the QE class to surprisingly become the flat top of choice for many other nations.

I don't know much Sanskrit to come up with an alternate name.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/fren...ome-topstories

It seems the French have pressed the Charles de Gaul fresh out of refit in the last year, in to the Garuda war games with India. From the 3 stages of the excercise and the mix of platforms participating on both sides (carriers, air assets, destroyers, frigates, support vessels, AEW platforms), it sure seems to be of great value. What I can't help but wonder is if this is also a clever opportunity on the part of the French. Given how beleaguered the Rafale has been during election season, a strong showing for the naval variant against the incumbent and oft crocked Mig-29K's of the IN would be an excellent stage to put forward a strong shout in favour of the French jet for the future carrier jet order.

I've said this before, and I'm still partial to this thinking. Even after all the pitfalls in procurement and the hurdles now, the fact of the matter is that the Rafale passed mustard to get over the line (we're simply arguing now after the fact for political reasons). So if it's already been scrutinised, then surely it makes sense to go for the naval sibling of the same platform for what's clearly a large IN order. We'll have all too critical maintenance commonality for a large part I'm sure. Plus to some degree the training can be common-ised too!

The Mig 29K fleet with the Indian Navy has had an abysmal availability ratio of around 15 - 30%. The naval variant of the Rafale would be a way more reliable option for us, considering the high availability ratio of the IAF's Mirage 2000 fleet (in the 80% territory, if memory serves me right). Damn those politicians who've needlessly tainted the Rafale this much!

15-30% serviceability?!!!??!!!! Says who? Is there any data to backup that claim?

“The serviceability of the MiG-29 from the present 60 % to upto 80 % or more and there is an urgent requirement to meet with the agencies in an effort to expedite the process. There are issues related to the landing of the aircraft on the carrier and due to the heavy landing regular maintenance is required to address the wear and tear issues.”

You can read more here

The only issue related to the KUB was the payment issues we had due to the sanctions imposed by the US.

No one is questioning the credibility of Rafale as a platform;to insinuate otherwise is completely misleading. The questioning is on the deal signed and I dont think tbhp is the right forum to discuss that.As someone who keenly followed the MMRCA from the beginning, there is no doubt that the Rafale was selected purely on merit. I remember following all the user trials conducted by the IAF ,taking all the 5 contenders to the intended area of Ops and evaluating them thoroughly.

"The availability rate ranged from 15.9 per cent to 37.63 per cent between 2010-14"

The Navy Chief had to then step in, Parrikar had to step in. A lot went in to improve the availability ratio of the Mig 29Ks so they're probably better off now. But I spoke originally from a historical perspective, so I'm not guilty your honor.

Source: https://m.economictimes.com/news/def...w/53400918.cms

The French aircraft are typically operable at very high levels without the bigwigs having to step in.

Your post said the 29 is at 15-30 availability ratio without stating its historical data. As with any program and initial operation, it is normal to see as the Manufacturer and Operator iron out the issues arising at Ops and the ratio improves over a period of time and stabilizes. Its more true for our forces as our machines are always a hybrid mix of components that otherwise would never be working together in tandem.