Team-BHP - Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers

The Pakistanis don't have any HDW submarines. They have old French Daphnes and Agosta Class submarines. Amongst the Agostas, the 70 series(2 in fleet) are plain old diesel electrics, whilst the latter Agosta 90B's (3 in fleet) are equipped with AIP. They planned to buy HDW Type 214's (one amongst the contenders for Project 75I Subs), but Indian diplomatic pressure and Pakistani economic realities stopped the deal from progressing, hence they are now going in for the Chinese Type 039 subs which itself are reverse engineered Kilo Class subs. They are buying 8 of them in a deal worth 6 billion USD, but we all know China will take payment in kind over cash from Pakistan.

Coming back to ANC command, yes its a triservice command, but the airbases there which include INS Baaz and IAF Car Nicobar AFS, don't home resident squadrons but host detachments of Indian Navy Poseidons from INS Rajali and Sukhoi 30's from various squadrons on a regular basis.

Coming to the point of a confrontation between India and China, I feel it will never happen, as economic and trade relations between the two will defuse all tensions.

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Originally Posted by DrPriyankT (Post 4756084)

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Coming to the point of a confrontation between India and China, I feel it will never happen, as economic and trade relations between the two will defuse all tensions.

Not only that- the Chinese are pragmatic. The straits of Malacca are their Achilles heel. given the ANC Command, IN and IAF control those lanes. Any Chinese carrier group that approaches India will be severely handicapped against the ANC command. Their J15s are woefully underequipped for carrier use and will be toast for the SU30.

From what I know from the IN boys, the P8I is a real game changer and the IN simply loves it. war games have proven that no sub is able to hide for long with these birds on patrol.

Its a significant leap in capability from the venerable "Albatross", although that was one beautiful prop bird.

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami (Post 4756426)

Absolutely, the P-8's are absolutely unparalleled in terms of capabilities. I sincerely hope we develop a fleet of 24 so we have 12 odd planes on each coast. While they are amazingly effective in patrolling the seas, they are pretty capable of surveillance of mountains as demonstrated during the doklam crisis.

Well on the topic of tech, India would've still fallen under the embargo conditions. India was not yet a signatory of Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) at the time of the first deal. We had to self engineer a lot of the systems for our P8's

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020...held-back.html

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The Indian Navy contracted for eight P-8I jets in January 2009, at which time India wasn’t yet a signatory to the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA), resulting in a large list of sensitive proprietary systems being held off the Indian planes. Four additional P-8I jets ordered by the Indian Navy in 2016, which begin delivery in April this year, will similarly be without the U.S. proprietary tech. In 2018, after over a decade in discussion, India and the United States finally signed the COMCASA, for the first time paving the way for U.S. high-end secured/encrypted communication equipment on American platforms supplied.

However the systems that were missing are:

AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS)
KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder
TACTERM/ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal, VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module
Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver’s COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT

To put it simply all of the above are simply data and communications systems that allow networking within and between combat units. So clearly COMCASA isn't linked to the MAD.

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the new P-8Is being negotiated will be .. sporting .. two sensors absent on the US Navy’s P-8As that were specifically asked for by the Indian Navy — the Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and CAE AN/ASQ 508A magnetic anomaly detector.

Ah so quite clearly this is a feature specifically requested for by the IN and not the usual case of the Americans withholding due to an embargo or cost reasons. So let's think like the IN - clearly they wager that the hulls of the PN and PLAN subs have a sufficiently strong signature to make it worthwhile to still operate the MAD. I guess in this regard it would be best to ask current and former USN P-3 Orion pilots how their MAD fared detecting some of the Agosta boats or the Chinese types. We sure as hell won't have any luck working out what the hull is made of in anything but a museum sub but I imagine its the IN going with something fairly simple and robust they have experience with over whatever new fangled solution the Americans must clearly have (they still seem to use it on their ASW helicopters according to this company brochure - https://www.cae.com/media/media-cent...eet.MAD-XR.pdf)

Here's what some quick Google fu threw up:

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The Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment as a weight reduction measure, improving endurance.
Unlike the preceding P-3, the P-8 lacks a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) due to its higher operational altitude; its acoustic sensor system is reportedly more effective at acoustic tracking and thus lacking a MAD won't impede its detection capabilities;

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/un...high-altitudes

Crikey - so the USN plan is to have an unmanned drone equipped with a MAD launched in tandem with their Poseidon's (no man - no barf bag issue!)! I guess the IN is just going to have our jets fly at lower altitudes. Wonder what that does for the long term durability of the air frames - obviously they won't be flying low enough to get salt water corrosion (I hope) but I wonder how the flight regimes the IN must be flying compare to the higher ones the USN must use.

Hope that answers your question Jeroen!

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo (Post 4756524)

J15s May not be in service with PLANAF for long. It has already costed too many lives for them.

As the USN is loathe to remind folks, their carrier ops prowess is a capability they quite literally built in blood and toil. It's little wonder the IN has always kept some form of carrier operational to not just lose that knowhow.

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Originally Posted by DrPriyankT (Post 4756444)

While they are amazingly effective in patrolling the seas, they are pretty capable of surveillance of mountains as demonstrated during the doklam crisis.

I think what that highlighted is just how integral persistent intelligence, surveillance and reconaissance (ISR) platforms that can provide real time information of an area are! It's easy to think that US dominance is built solely on their bleeding edge platforms. I think their 2 biggest pillars are their unmatched logistical reach - they can put men and materiel near anywhere on the planet at a days notice; And their unparalleled intelligence capabilities. Half the reason they have all kinds of drones imaginable is so Uncle Sam can have an eye in the sky on you when he wants - take the persistent footage from the RQ-170 that was over Bin Ladens compound including during the raid.

I don't know how far India got in terms of their interest in such platforms (I vaguely remember a deal about Predators but nothing for high altitude long endurance HALE drones like the Global Hawk) but I genuinely think a whole cohort of unmanned drones to persistently provide coverage not just over our restive border regions but also our maritime neighbourhood is the order of the day. All that being said I'm getting greedy. More P8I's is a step in the right direction and more prudent decision making like this please *fingers crossed*

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Originally Posted by ads11 (Post 4756645)

... I guess the IN is just going to have our jets fly at lower altitudes. Wonder what that does for the long term durability of the air frames - obviously they won't be flying low enough to get salt water corrosion (I hope) but I wonder how the flight regimes the IN must be flying compare to the higher ones the USN must use.

Hope that answers your question Jeroen!

I hope our P8s carry a lot of citrus lemon and salt. stupid:

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Originally Posted by ads11 (Post 4756648)

As the USN is loathe to remind folks,...

True. But the J15s will have to be sidelined sooner or later because it keeps asking for sacrifices in form of human life just because the bird is not well made. This is not fair on any military, be it even our adversary. Losing a well trained soldier in a fight is something but losing him/her because the equipment is ill suited or poorly made is not fair on what his life is worth.

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Originally Posted by ads11 (Post 4756648)

I think what that highlighted is just how integral persistent intelligence, surveillance and reconaissance (ISR) platforms that can provide real time information of an area are! ... All that being said I'm getting greedy. More P8I's is a step in the right direction and more prudent decision making like this please *fingers crossed*

Sir, I am sure you have heard of the "Rustom" program. Let us hope that under the new leadership the DRDO performs and gets the project completed on fast track mode.

The Indian Navy will begin inducting a second batch of four P-8I Neptune maritime patrol aircraft in April. The original batch of eight P-8I’s have logged 25,000 hours of flying.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/indi...raft-in-april/

Indian Navy to buy 24 Sikorsky MH-60R multi-role (but primarily ASW) helicopters

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/74220157.cms

Summary of features of the MH-60R

Role: The helicopter is equipped for a range of missions including (i) anti-submarine warfare , (ii) anti-surface warfare, (iii) forward air controller for naval gunfire support , (iv) surveillance, (v) communications relay and (vi) vertical replenishment.

Sensors & Avionics: multi-mode radar/IFF interrogator with Automatic Radar Periscope Detection and Discrimination capability; low-frequency variable depth sonar, sonobouys (?); Missile Approach Warning System, electro-optical system that integrates FLIR (forward Looking Infra Red) and laser rangefinder, decoy dispenser and infrared jammer; 4 fully integrated 8" x 10" night vision goggle-compatible multi-function displays; fleet data link, global positioning system and inertial navigation system. The MH-60R does not carry the MAD suite.

Survivability: The MH-60R is constructed with tolerance to small arms fire and medium-calibre high-explosive projectiles. The flight controls have dual-redundancy and ballistically hardened flight controls. The fuel tank is self-sealing. The helicopter is fitted with energy-absorbing landing gear and load-limiting crew seats.The upper controls and hub are ballistically tolerant and the rotor blades are tolerant against 23mm rounds. The tail rotor has redundant fail-safe controls. The modular transmission system is fitted with fail safe lubrication. The hydraulics and electrical systems are triple-redundant.

Engines and performance: The helicopter is powered by two General Electric T700 turboshaft engines rated at 1,425kW. The internal self-sealing fuel tanks have a capacity of 2,230 litres.

The MH-60R can climb at a rate of 8.4m/s. The maximum and cruise speed of the helicopter are 145 knots (267 kmph) and 91 knots (168 kmph) respectively, while the range is 450 nautical miles (834 km). The helicopter weighs around 6.8 tonnes and has a maximum take-off weight of 10.7 tonnes. Slung load 2.7 tonnes. Can carry 2 454 litre drop tanks when needed - this sacrifices the two ASW torpedoes.

Weapons: Not much is known about which weapons the IN helicopters will deploy. Typically 2 light weight 324mm ASW torpedoes, 4 Hellfire laser guided ground/sea attack missiles, gunpods.

With reference to the discussion on the IN's P-8I's carrying a MAD stinger in the tail - I suppose this is only for detecting a submarine in very shallow waters where a sonobouys efficacy can get seriously impaired. Much of the western seaboard till about Goa is very shallow. a MAD as most will know is at best a very approximate detection device and really works only when the submarine is close to the surface (don't know how close).

My personal P-8I with a 1956 Observers Book of Aircraft :-)

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 4756758)

With reference to the discussion on the IN's P-8I's carrying a MAD stinger in the tail - I suppose this is only for detecting a submarine in very shallow waters where a sonobouys efficacy can get seriously impaired. Much of the western seaboard till about Goa is very shallow. a MAD as most will know is at best a very approximate detection device and really works only when the submarine is close to the surface (don't know how close).

Something to do with the reduction of the magnetic field by the inverse cube of distance. Even so, from what I have read, by and large detection ranges somewhat in the neigbourhood of 500 meters from the sensor. The actual depth at which a submarine can be detected is a function both of the size of the submarine and how close the sensor is flown to the surface of the water. Construction and material of the sub makes a difference too.

So if you get your P-81 on the deck, you are likely to get a pretty good depth range for most submarines, I would think. That is, if the crew can actually look at their instruments as they are tossed around and all are reaching for their barf bags. And of course, a P-81 (or any jet) on the deck will have atrocious fuel efficiency. So if anything else, the tossing around is unlikely to last very long. On the other hand, up in the air MAD is totally useless, just lugging dead weight around!

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 4756758)

My personal P-8I with a 1956 Observers Book of Aircraft :-)

Somehow I doubt your Observers Book of Aircraft would have a picture of the P-81 :)

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Originally Posted by Jeroen (Post 4756910)

Something to do with the reduction of the magnetic field...

Asked a former USN ASW S-3 Viking pilot and here's what I got:

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I suspect it comes down to different operating philosophies. The USN's priority for its P-8As is maximum range and maximum time on station. The intention therefore is to reduce or even eliminate the need for low level flying. As a result the USN is emphasising weapons and sensors that can be used at much higher altitudes.
BAE Sytems in the US is developing the High Altitude ASW (HAASW) Unmanned Targeting Air System (UTAS). This is a small dispensable drone equipped with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) that can be dropped from the P-8A weapons bay at high altitude. Previous MPAs (and India’s P-8i) have a MAD boom on the tail of the aircraft which require the aircraft to fly at low level over the suspected contact. Small changes in the earth’s magnetic field are detected if there is a submarine present. MAD has only a short detection range but is a useful tool for localising and confirming the presence of a submarine if no active sonar emitter is available. UTAS will enable this to be done by the P-8A at high altitude without the need to descend.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/res...bility-part-2/
See also: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/un...y-detector-mad

So basically more of the same of what was discussed earlier.

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo (Post 4756654)

Sir, I am sure you have heard of the "Rustom" program. Let us hope that under the new leadership the DRDO performs and gets the project completed on fast track mode.

I have indeed heard of the Rustom - but I don't think I've seen much in way of it clearing any of the major steps towards full operation. Drones are something that on paper seem fairly easy, at least the Predator type drone most of us instinctively think of. But going by the lousy experience the foreign operators of the Chinese Predator drone facsimiles have had, it's easier said than done. Of course I'd want India to nail something like the Rustom so we have our own indigenous ability to churn these out but for lack of trying I'd rather we at least maintain a small fleet for now of Reaper drones or Global Hawks if possible. Short of reverse engineering, I'm sure just even utilising them would be valuable for the Rustom development team. They'll have a yardstick at home to compare their platform against. Remember, all we need to aim for is 80% of the capability at 70% of the cost and I think DRDO will have made a decent fist of it.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan (Post 4756758)

Indian Navy to buy 24 Sikorsky MH-60R multi-role (but primarily ASW) helicopters..

The Seahawk purchase was a long time coming. In fact anything to replace our geriatric Sea Kings was long overdue. The old birds have given sterling service but I think it's a step too far to expect them to still soldier on effectively in the 2020s. The Seahawk is a fairly robust platform (same family as the Blackhawk in case you were wondering). As V.Narayan nicely pointed out with the last ASW corvette INS Kavaratti inducted, we're going to need a modernised rotary wing component to complement these new vessels, that's including the Kolkata class destroyers and other surface ships.