[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by shashanka

"FANTASTIC Russian Mikoyan MiG-29 FORMATION PAIR/DUO with OVT VECTORED THRUST Demo" -

I believe our IAF too has the MIG-29. And with this capability?......

They are RC planes not real ones as per the video channel but I think they are not even real RC planes and probably CGI.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

They are RC planes not real ones as per the video channel but I think they are not even real RC planes and probably CGI.

Thanks wrongturn - it did seem too fantastic to be taken at face value!
But the MIG-29 that the IAF has - does it really have this kind of hovering capability?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

They are RC planes not real ones as per the video channel but I think they are not even real RC planes and probably CGI.

Originally Posted by shashanka

Thanks wrongturn - it did seem too fantastic to be taken at face value!
But the MIG-29 that the IAF has - does it really have this kind of hovering capability?

@shashanka, thank you for sharing. It was fun watching. After careful observation of the wings, the (not) blowing grass and the (not) lifting dust my take is that this is a superbly crafted computer generated video as @wrongturn says. If you look at the wing surfaces - they are way too clean. A real aircraft's wings are never so super smooth :-). An aircraft with OVT may be able to hover in the vertical for a few or several seconds - I do not know enough of OVT to say this with confidence. I couldnt fly a radio controlled aircraft with such precision. They usually have a mind of their own. watch any video of a RC model aircraft being landed :-)

The MiG-29's the IAF have are certainly very maneuverable and can do a back slide in a vertical position but they cannot do this vertical dance shown in this animated video. From a dog fight point of view the jury is out on whether a vertical vertical back slide has any combat value other than causing a infra red guided missile to (maybe) overshoot. This is not my area of expertise so take it with a pinch of salt. The real bite our MiG-29's have is in their upgraded weapons suite, avionics and helmet mounted sights.

[benu9714]

Fascinating, but is this capability of any practical use in today's aerial warfare where BVR missiles are the norm?

[Aviatoraval]

Originally Posted by shashanka

Thanks wrongturn - it did seem too fantastic to be taken at face value!
But the MIG-29 that the IAF has - does it really have this kind of hovering capability?

No Mig-29s are not capable of this kind of manoeuvre. In fact some of the aircraft can be flown in this attitude for a very small fraction of time while taking evasive manoeuvre, but cannot sustain like these ones. This time of flying is possible in RC wherein thrust available is way more than weight of an aircraft. Basically if aircraft engine is producing thrust which can sustain aircraft weight it is possibe with some extra directional jets to control it further.

Originally Posted by benu9714

Fascinating, but is this capability of any practical use in today's aerial warfare where BVR missiles are the norm?

BVR warfare is norm but not the only norm, there are other tactics too which require you to manoeuvre. Always remember it is not a big thing to fly fast what you really require is how slow and maneuverable the machine is.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

@shashanka, thank you for sharing. It was fun watching. After careful observation of the wings, the (not) blowing.......MiG-29's have is in their upgraded weapons suite, avionics and helmet mounted sights.

Thanks Narayan - Your post has been really informative for me, in an area about which I know next to nothing!

And about the MIG-29 in our IAF, I'm glad you told me - I had no idea that it had this vertical hovering ability. Even tho' it might not be able to do the kind of tango that this video shows!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by benu9714

Fascinating, but is this capability of any practical use in today's aerial warfare where BVR missiles are the norm?

A few of us could offer our views on this but at least I would need to know first if this is a rhetorical question or a genuine query. Thanks.

[benu9714]

Mr Narayan, I am an avid follower of all your posts.

Yes, this IS a genuine query. When I read about stealth fighters, powerful radars, and missiles that can shoot down the enemy from 100 KM away, I wonder how relevant is the ability to perform extreme maneuvers and aerobatic moves. Thanks in advance for your explanation.

[rajathv8]

The video is not of a real plane but rather a Radio Control model. You can see "Essential RC" on the top right hand corner.

PS: Oops looks like others already pointed this out. Mods pls delete this post.

[moralfibre]

Just stumbled upon this thread and thought I should mention that all MIG-29 Fulcrum fans must read this interview of Air Marshall Harish Masand:

Link 1

And these too:

Mig 29 vs Mirage 2000

Huskit is a wonderful website btw!

[itwasntme]

Last week landing at GOI (Goa) in atrocious conditions in a A320 (hence stationary for intermittent periods on the runway / taxiways), was extra lucky to see 2 MiG 29Ks in final prep, as well as a superb long look at the pseudo-INS Vikramaditya ramp at the end of the runway. Other pax were wondering why I was dribbling at the funny 'elephant' ramp :-)

No pictures of course.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by benu9714

Mr Narayan, I am an avid follower of all your posts.

Yes, this IS a genuine query. When I read about stealth fighters, powerful radars, and missiles that can shoot down the enemy from 100 KM away, I wonder how relevant is the ability to perform extreme maneuvers and aerobatic moves. Thanks in advance for your explanation.

Thank you @benu9714. Let me share some points which I hope will address your question. Other knowledgeable members I'm sure can throw further light.

Let’s go back to basics. A Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile is like an arrow fired from a longbow. While a shorter ranged dog fight missile is like a sword and the gunpack like a khukri dagger. If you can use the arrow then that’s great – for that you need a clear line of sight, the target should be visible from a great distance and you should be pretty sure it is the enemy and not a blue on blue or worse a civilian aircraft of a neutral party. Your enemy knowing you have a long bow and a good aim will usually avoid a situation where you can get a straight line of sight – he will hide, use cover, attack from a direction you don’t forsee, come disguised as a friend till he is really too close to you etc. That is when dog fighting, short range IR missiles and the trusty gunpack ie the sword and the khukri come in to their own. This illustration aims to get the point across that both the arrow (BVR) and the sword (IR) and the khukri (gunpack) have there roles to play depending on the scenario the enemy imposes on you or you choose for yourself in an offensive mission. I have played out but one scenario. There can be dozens of them in real life.

So far BVRs have only been used in set piece battles – Gulf War -I & Gulf War -II where one side was overwhelmingly larger and better trained and better equipped with C3 than the other. In such cases it is easier (not simple but easier) for your Air Force to know where the enemy will come from and to make IFF work. Also both occassions had no civil overflights of neutral parties to confuse the picture. In a situation of two equally well equipped Air Forces with both possessing strong electronic warfare capabilities the ability of a BVR engagement can be sorely blunted. The BVR if fired from the ranges it is meant to be used provides its intended victim a few dozens of seconds of warning in an environment where action is taken in fractions of a second thus giving an alert intended victim the opportunity to evade and even counter attack.

A BVR brings with it the added question mark of being doubly doubly sure that those two blips 30 or 50 kms out are actually bandits and not an airliner. IFF works but only up to a point. IFF after all also depends on avionics and electromagnetic waves and is vulnerable to jamming, deception, weather conditions etc. No IFF is fool proof.

There are several situations where a good BVR is a great asset. For example an ambush you have set up for the bandits or a diversion you wish to create for something else etc.

Given above are a few factors of several. Summing up AMRAAM's and other BVRs are not a final answer to interception though they are an important component of air defence and establishing air superiority.

Hope this helps.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by shashanka

I came across this video recently on YouTube and found it astonishing. Mods if the video has been posted earlier on another thread, please delete it.
We have seen videos of VTOL/STOL aircraft in demos earlier, but I haven't seen this before.

FANTASTIC Russian Mikoyan MiG-29 FORMATION PAIR/DUO with OVT VECTORED THRUST Demo

I believe our IAF too has the MIG-29. And with this capability?......

Thats't not a real aircraft, it's a radio control model aircraft.

Mig-29 OVT version is grounded, it had come to aero india 2007. Similar trust vectoring is used in SU35.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you @benu9714. Let me share some points which I hope will address your question. Other knowledgeable members I'm sure can throw further light.
Let’s go back to basics. A Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile....... Summing up AMRAAM's and other BVRs are not a final answer to interception though they are an important component of air defence and establishing air superiority.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, Narayanji! It is for this reason that I feel happy to be here on this forum - that there are members like you from whom one can get useful information on topics where one is groping in the dark.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by shashanka

Thank you, Narayanji! It is for this reason that I feel happy to be here on this forum - that there are members like you from whom one can get useful information on topics where one is groping in the dark.

The feeling is mutual. I follow your posts on dogs and you follow mine on aircrafts. A happy balance. I would love to keep a dog at home but I have a big queen cat who refuses to have anything to do with dogs. :-(