[Jeroen]

100 kmph on the road on track? Wow that's fast. Probably very uncomfortable and very noisy
Jeroen

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

100 kmph on the road on track? Wow that's fast. Probably very uncomfortable and very noisy

Some mini excavators and snowmobiles have steel tracks with rubber/polymer contact patches. If this ATV has such a contact patch, then on-tarmac performance should be decent. After all, these are light vehicles unlike battle tanks or full sized excavators. 100% rubber tracks are also available, although I'm not sure what type of tracks this particular ATV uses.

[Jeroen]

They should apply for the Guinness Book of world record. Current world record for tracked vehicles stands at well below 100km/h!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._speed_records

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

They should apply for the Guinness Book of world record. Current world record for tracked vehicles stands at well below 100km/h!

Before calling up Guinness, one should probably check with the manufacturer then. It's quite likely that the Indian media just asked the driver how fast it goes on road. To impress, he might have said "100 kmph"





http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/55390784.cms

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A Navy can get a message across by simply showing up 20 kms off your shore. Navies are used by the Foreign Office of major & regional powers to growl but not bark, to bark but not bite and to bite but not kill!!

Exactly, Navies have long been the ideal proponent of soft power. I mean Teddy Roosevelt was a visionary in recognising the need of the Great White Fleet and it's voyages around the globe to not only reinforce his 'Big Stick' policy but to give the people of the world the impression that the Royal Navy were not simply the only global naval power. Look how far the USN has come since. All the Freedom Of Navigation transits by the USN through the South China Sea are simply an extension of this passive aggressive method of dissuasion, though that's a different matter in context of how effective it is proving to be..

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...l?iid=sr-link5

The Royal Navy meanwhile is in a bad shape. There are some who would say why doesn't India take a punt on the HMS Ocean and buy it if not to simply reverse engineer it and build our own domestic LPD's? It's an intriguing proposal for sure. The fact the HMS Ocean is built to commercial standards is what stands to mind immediately against it. But I do agree it's critical India sorts out the tender for the LPD soon though given the many other critical tenders in limbo, all fighting for a limited chunk of the budget pie, lord only knows when there will be any resolution.

I'm kinda surprised India didn't make a low key approach for the orphaned Mistrals that were originally meant for Russia. I really can't see what need Egypt has for those two vessels unless Egypt then goes and sells on to Russia thereby circumventing the sanctions that prevented the Russians from taking ownership. Even then, going via Indian hands would've seemed a more logical route given the historic ties. I do remember IN brass objecting to the pod style thrusters and preferring a traditional shaft driven propulsion that would eat somewhat into the internal well deck space.

The tri forces joint base at Andaman is one of the most critical future pieces of our national defence apparatus. It's absolutely vital we execute this one right, for it will give us one massive tool to choke out our powerful northern neighbour. Honestly I don't see why we go for the poetic justice route of copying their A2/AD antics in the SCS and apply it directly to the Andaman and Nicobar islands!

[V.Narayan]

ads11, welcome to T-BHP. There are a few of us interested in military aircrafts and ships. Glad to see the tribe grow. From your posts it seems you study military history and foreign affairs.

Originally Posted by ads11

Exactly, Navies have long been the ideal proponent of soft power.

Sometime around 1971 there was some political turmoil in Sri Lanka (then Ceylon) called the JVP insurrection. Their Prime Minister Srimavo Bandaranaike appealed to Indira Gandhi for immediate help. Gandhi dispatched some warships and the old INS Vikrant post haste. Vikrant's fighters, the venerable Seahawks, buzzed Colombo and the rebel locations in less than 24 hours from the call being placed. More intervention later the Sri Lankan Govt was saved from by toppled by the rebels. Later Indira Gandhi enquired of Srimavo that I hope our ships and aircraft got to you in time. Srimavo replied, 'yes they did. I am worried how quickly they reached Colombo.' A small incident but it says it all about the ability to use naval power in a graded response.

All the Freedom Of Navigation transits by the USN through the South China Sea are simply an extension of this passive aggressive method of dissuasion, though that's a different matter in context of how effective it is proving to be..

The Americans are right in insisting on freedom of the seas in the face of shameless Chinese violations. The practices and laws of the freedom of the seas are from time immemorial and the Chinese are testing how far they can get away with law breaking.

There are some who would say why doesn't India take a punt on the HMS Ocean

Good thought. Our time for buying second hand ships except in the rarest of rare cases (e.g. Gorshkov) are over. Better to build new and build at home. Maintenance of a one off second hand ship is enormous. The first long refit will cost more than the acquisition price literally.

The fact the HMS Ocean is built to commercial standards is what stands to mind immediately against it.

The Royal Navy builds ships very strong even when to commercial standards. The old INS Vikrant was built similarly to Lloyds commercial standards. A little known factoid!

But I do agree it's critical India sorts out the tender for the LPD soon though given the many other critical tenders in limbo, all fighting for a limited chunk of the budget pie, lord only knows when there will be any resolution.

I think it will get done by this Govt.

I'm kinda surprised India didn't make a low key approach for the orphaned Mistrals that were originally meant for Russia. I really can't see what need Egypt has for those two vessels unless Egypt then goes and sells on to Russia thereby circumventing the sanctions that prevented the Russians from taking ownership.

Same here. Agree. Egypt!! Egypt??

Honestly I don't see why we go for the poetic justice route of copying their A2/AD antics in the SCS and apply it directly to the Andaman and Nicobar islands!

Did not quite understand this. Please could you elaborate.

[ads11]

Thank you for the welcome. I am indeed a bit of a defence and geopolitics afficionado, in fact I would skim through all the related posts on T-BHP itching to pipe in with my own input.

That's such an excellent story about the Sri Lankan intervention! When I get asked incredulously why India is so hell bent on maintaining carrier capability, stories like that make it so incredibly apparent how useful it's proven to be through our history. The Admiralty would be loathe to give it up and why should they, it's ability learnt over many years. Our skills in this regard can't be allowed to atrophy.

I think after the various incidents involving the USN vessels colliding with commercial ships, it brings to stark attention just how robustly built naval ships are if they can take a hit from a behemoth like a container ship and still be able to limp along at least under their own power. So therein lies my skepticism regarding the less than full fat construction standards for the HMS Ocean though as you point out the Vikrant was built to the same standards so maybe the shipbuilders know what they're doing!

Good thought. Our time for buying second hand ships except in the rarest of rare cases (e.g. Gorshkov) are over. Better to build new and build at home. Maintenance of a one off second hand ship is enormous. The first long refit will cost more than the acquisition price literally.

Oh absolutely. I'm not suggesting buying the one off make to maintain as a one off. It was simply a thought for us to take a page out of the Chinese book and maybe pull a Liaoning type job on the HMS Ocean so that we may in a decade or two (to be realistic) end up fielding our own domestic facsimiles of the HMS Ocean.

I do hope this govt. can make up for the lost years under AK Anthony. I really kind of wish we had just jumped in and nabbed the Mistrals, maybe even in a direct govt. to govt. deal with the French. Would've been a big ticket announcement for any bilateral visit, strengthened ties with a long time supplier that might've gone some ways to easing the barriers in the Rafale deal, given if India had bought the Mistrals it would've been sure to maintain a few French shipyard jobs if only through the maintenance over the vessels lifetime. Also, even if India didn't sell directly to Russia I'm sure India would've been more than happy to turn a blind eye to having a few Russian observers on board to help them in their nascent plans to build a variant of their own, thereby earning brownie points with Moscow to use as we please in our own bilateral defence wrangles.

Ah, so Anti-Access/Area Denial seems to be the vogue defence creed of the day. Look at the Russia's involvement in Syria for example. While they initially entered through leasing a Syrian air base, once they parked their S-400 batteries they instantly made the area incredibly prickly and difficult to traverse for coalition air power. It's essentially using a couple of systems to prevent an opponent from entering your own territory, usually because the cost equation becomes untenable. Say all it took was China to park a few missiles on one of those SCS reefs, the potential risk to the Americans would become a lot more in terms of the capital loss in hardware for any action they might think to take.

What I was proposing is India try something similar. I'm not suggesting we lay mines in such a busy shipping lane (if things go wrong, India is going to be well and truly in trouble then), but maybe park a small potent armada and a couple of jets and some SAMs, and ASMs too.

[shortbread]

From a complete arm-chair commentators point of view, I thought this might give the Naval higher powers some ideas!

As Theresa May’s government seeks to finalise a sweeping review of the UK’s defence and security strategy to partly tackle a £20bn funding black hole at the Ministry of Defence over the next decade, much of the recent focus has fallen on Plymouth and its deep-rooted connections to the Royal Navy.

But with the defence ministry committed to spending £31bn on renewing the UK’s Trident nuclear deterrent submarines and £6.1bn on two new aircraft carriers, concerns over cuts elsewhere are growing.

The fear inside the navy is that the axe is about to fall on Britain’s two amphibious assault ships — HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion, and this has sparked disquiet among the UK’s military allies.

Navy chiefs have put forward two landing assault ships, HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, as options to be cut in a mini defence review that is looking at security capabilities but must also shrink a £20 billion-£30 billion hole in the budget over the next decade.

Reports say that another option is to axe 28 Wildcat HMA2 helicopters. This would leave the Fleet Air Arm with just its Merlin helicopters, reducing support costs but, sources said, harming its ability to support the fleet.

Now these aren't antiquated behemoths. Albion was commissioned in 2003 and the Bulwark in 2005. Following this the Albion had a major refit in 2017 and the Bulwark in 2011. Both these ships were deemed operational beyond 2030! Albeit my knowledge on the matter is zilch and perhaps more informed members can shed light on the complications of such a transaction.

Sources:

https://www.ft.com/content/1125f706-...a-d9c0a5c8d5c9

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...view-5kmpwgtd8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bulwark_(L15)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Albion_(L14)

[V.Narayan]

Thank you for sharing this. Putting HMS Bulwark & HMS Albion into reserve or selling them off will be a sad day for the Royal Navy. 25 years ago the Royal Navy was one of the best and in submarine operations probably the best. 60 years ago they were also the second largest. Today sadly in size (if not capability) they are smaller than the Indian Navy. A capability built over 300 years has been reduced ‎dramatically by a long line of 2nd rate British politicians. With Brexit around the corner in 10 years time UK is at risk of being counted as a world power in the same breath as Portugal or Spain.
‎
The RN is clinging on to the 2 aircraft carriers and 4 Vanguard SSBN's as those assets give it world power projection status.
‎
I wonder if the Indian Navy should buy these two very fine, capable and large ships as a interim measure till we build our own or make under license.

[ads11]

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...s?iid=sr-link3

A more comprehensive round up of the ramifications of this long in gestation move. A key quote from above:

Whatever the case, the BBC reported that its sources explained that the proposed cuts to the Royal Navy were a two-part effort to both save money and free up sailors to man the two Queen Elizabeth-class carriers.

Basically takes us to one of the core issues facing the Royal Navy. If I had to summarise:

• The decision to go for those two giant carriers has really really hamstrung the Royal Navy, in order to pay for them and more importantly staff the damn things, they're having to cut other ships and move their crew across.
• This means that they barely have any of the support vessels to constitute a viable carrier group. We have to remember, less than half of the overall hulls are at sea at any given time, and even if surged during war time you never quite end up fielding All the available hulls.
• Another crucial point is that the USN inquest into the two calamitous destroyer collisions with other vessels highlighted the dangerously low morale of US Pacific fleet crews who feel overworked and just aren't in the right frame of mind. If the RN starts moving crews across this way to just make up a full cohort for its gleaming white elephants, then they risk inviting the same problems.

Anyway, I have an interesting angle for V.Narayan's final point. I know we both discussed earlier how getting a one off on HMS Ocean would probably not be sound but let's look at these other two ships. We all remember how Mrs May made her first overseas trip to India, thirsty for some investment loving to take back home and show that Britain could make direct deals with rising powers to tide the body blow of Brexit. Well didn't South Bloc give her the cold shoulder!
That's not to say she wouldn't jump at the chance for any big investment story (I mean look at how carefully worded the UK statement was on the loss of the ICJ seat to India).
What say we go in and buy these ships, with the promise that support sales and parts will come from UK shipyards (she'll get to trot out how it saves jobs - a win for her). She might be so desperate for this, India could probably buy the blueprints to the ships at a pittance, maybe with a paltry commitment to buying a few components from the UK while the rest of the vessels of the class are built locally in India. Modi then has his long term Make in India gain, ToT, albeit for maybe an immediate hit when Joe Bloggs in India fails to see the long term wins of being able to bypass the development time to a whole class of vessel. That would be some world class wheeling and dealing Rodney Trotter of Only Fools and Horses fame would be proud of. Heck if we did this before the next UK general election she might be doubly desperate for any win to bolster her standing within her own party, let alone the people. India could really have a steal here.

Thoughts? I'm really keen to hear this.

On an aside - what do folks think of the traditional role of Marines to storm a beach in this day and age, Normandy style? Many I speak to are of the mind that in today's intensely fraught A2/AD environments, it'll be a waste of men and machines to try and storm a beach. Obviously this rankles every marine corpsman worth his salt because it goes against their very hard drilled ethos.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for sharing this......
I wonder if the Indian Navy should buy these two very fine, capable and large ships as a interim measure till we build our own or make under license.

No mention.....always a pleasure to read your inputs. I also think these two ships are an effective interim measure saving both time and costs.

Originally Posted by ads11

• The decision to go for those two giant carriers has really really hamstrung the Royal Navy, in order to pay for them and more importantly staff the damn things, they're having to cut other ships and move their crew across.
  

I always felt the carrier decision was a haphazard decision by the Cameron cabinet in order to secure the future of the defence sector and the ship-building industry in UK. This along with the supplementary air crafts which include locally made helicopters and US procured F35s meant it was supposed to be a win-win overall. Far from it, the ensuing chest-thumping, followed by design and procurement confusion, then cost issues showed the lack of a proper thought process in its implementation. Or so I think!

Originally Posted by ads11

That would be some world class wheeling and dealing Rodney Trotter of Only Fools and Horses fame would be proud of. Heck if we did this before the next UK general election she might be doubly desperate for any win to bolster her standing within her own party, let alone the people. India could really have a steal here.

Thoughts? I'm really keen to hear this.

It all depends on how such a deal is packaged and sold to the media. Indian investment and money + job saver + future close ally etc....can work in the British context. Losing the ICJ seat has been very hush-hush here especially since the Daily Mail-Sun readers have absolutely no care about the UN! To them some random posh twat just lost his job to an Indian.....fair game since they think they suffer the same. On the other hand UK Govt. has always been eyeing a piece of Indian defence purchase and nothing major has materialized since the 'Hawk trainers' deal back in 2010. So rather than scrap these ships, T May can package this as selling used ships to India for considerable revenue and future defence sales.

In the Indian context, a sudden rise in Indian strike capability etc....the press can easily sell such news. They effectively did it after multiple American defence purchases.

Such an acquisition for all its positives will have a severe impact on the Defence privatization drive especially since big names like Reliance and L&T are involved. But it makes a lot of sense to acquire these 'very current' vessels and use the learning for domestic designs.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I always felt the carrier decision was a haphazard decision by the Cameron cabinet in order to secure the future of the defence sector and the ship-building industry in UK.

I think it goes back a lot further than that. Possibly into the Labour administration. But that's not the main issue, in their pursuit of a big new toy and all the dithering on the layout of the top deck, they've now got a compromised platform. I feel having a cat and trap flat top would've given them the F-35C which could've offered more flexibility with RAF sharing perhaps. Anyway the only way it rustles a full air wing is if the US Marines get their jets on board, especially given the deck melting issues they've faced with their own America's class helicopter carriers. The QE class should at least be rated to withstand constant F-35B ops.

Originally Posted by shortbread

It all depends on how such a deal is packaged and sold to the media. .... T May can package this as selling used ships to India for considerable revenue and future defence sales.

Oh for sure, she'll take any win she can get. Also you're right about the typical readers of rag mags like the Sun not giving a care, but take a more up market selection of Telegraph readers and others on the centre right and it will sting them. But more so about the lost capability. But right now, any investment boost is something Ms May will take. Any potential sale is guaranteed to ensure a handful of UK jobs as Indians won't be able to waltz right on board and know their way around right away. Plus with license building I'm sure UK firms will find their consultancy will be roped in at times.

Originally Posted by shortbread

Such an acquisition for all its positives will have a severe impact on the Defence privatization drive especially since big names like Reliance and L&T are involved. But it makes a lot of sense to acquire these 'very current' vessels and use the learning for domestic designs.

Will it?

I think Indian private sector manufacturers will get a leg up from the saved development time if a friendly country just straight up let them have the blue prints in order for us to just build our own. If memory serves me right, isn't that essentially how the genesis of modern IN ship building came to be? It's a model that's worked for us in the past. Modi would get a short term jobs boost from just straight up plain manufacturing, and long term, again, Indian engineers won't be wasting time engineering components from scratch. They can subsequently iterate and improve on the platform.

I think it's worth a punt. I mean the Brazilians have allegedly made a formal notice of interest in HMS Ocean, if Whitehall plays ball, we'll know at least what the potential response could be like if say New Delhi did the same for the orphaned twins.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/braz...ase-hms-ocean/

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I also think these two ships are an effective interim measure saving both time and costs

.
Yup.

I always felt the carrier decision was a haphazard decision by the Cameron cabinet in order to secure the future of the defence sector and the ship-building industry in UK.

It was, in my eyes, a last hurrah. As an arm chair cadet I have a soft spot for the RN. And this was an attempt to stay relevant as a global political power. With Brexit and its potential cost on the economy I suspect keeping two big carriers operational will be a stretch. Even the French are struggling with managing just one and they have always had a more assertive defence budget.

On the other hand UK Govt. has always been eyeing a piece of Indian defence purchase and nothing major has materialized since the 'Hawk trainers' deal back in 2010. So rather than scrap these ships, T May can package this as selling used ships to India for considerable revenue and future defence sales.

Originally Posted by ads11

I think it's worth a punt. I mean the Brazilians have allegedly made a formal notice of interest in HMS Ocean, if Whitehall plays ball, we'll know at least what the potential response could be like if say New Delhi did the same for the orphaned twins.

India and China are the two potential candidates for all practical purposes. Australia could have been but they are already invested in the Canberra class. Brazil has always been a good customer for second hand RN ships and has its logistics-training links well established. I think Ocean is a sort of replacement for the decommissioned Sao Paulo.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

.
Even the French are struggling with managing just one and they have always had a more assertive defence budget.


India and China are the two potential candidates for all practical purposes. Australia could have been but they are already invested in the Canberra class. Brazil has always been a good customer for second hand RN ships and has its logistics-training links well established. I think Ocean is a sort of replacement for the decommissioned Sao Paulo.

The French have always had trouble with the Charles de Gaulle, I think it mainly stems from the nuclear powerplant. The UK will most definitely have a tough time, apparently a MoD offhand quote went along the lines of "The RN got us into this mess, it's up to them to sort themselves out". Thankfully for them, all this NATO synergy pays off in terms of offering use for the new QE what with the US Marines using it to make up for the hull shortage the USN faces. I mean in surge operations, or in a coalition, it would make sense for USN DDG's and picket ships to form a carrier group based around the HMS QE, after all that massive size was predicated by the fact the RN planners wanted a platform their American cousins could use right with them. Politically though I dunno if the British public would stomach the use of their flagship as part of an ostensibly US operation in such a set up, especially given the tremendous antipathy for President Trump this side of the pond.

Coming back to Brazil, they are most definitely looking at HMS Ocean to replace the Sao Paulo. Instead of a costly late life refit of a geriatric vessel, they quickly saw the opportunity to grab a much newer one and have wisely scrapped those plans. Real shame for the aviation aficionados as it spells the end of the last Naval Skyhawks still in use. I think the Ocean would be better placed for the Brazilians. Would offer them more flexibility in terms of what it could be used for, including what I imagine will mostly involve humanitarian aid ops.

I doubt China would get it, but given how much the previous Chancellor banked on the relationship with China, I dunno, maybe there could be a slim chance of this deal getting greenlit. Were it to happen I'm calling it now, the orange child in the Oval Office is immediately throwing a strop.

Other than India then I don't see anyone who can buy the two ships and have use for them. It all depends on the optics I suppose, how it's marketed to the Indian public. I can see the rural hinterland rustbelt equivalent of ours crying foul at spending yet more money on foreign products. But as long as the policy makers take the short term hit for the long term gains from this..
One can dream.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by ads11

Other than India then I don't see anyone who can buy the two ships and have use for them. It all depends on the optics I suppose, how it's marketed to the Indian public. I can see the rural hinterland rustbelt equivalent of ours crying foul at spending yet more money on foreign products. But as long as the policy makers take the short term hit for the long term gains from this..
One can dream.

I think some news headlines stating 'India's sudden boost overnight in its ability to strike certain unfriendly ports on its western side should do the trick!' Or how we brought two jewels of our former colonial rulers.......there are no limits of how the news media can spin this. Rest assured one will see IE run with the headlines 'Severe blow to Government's Make in India defence plans!'.

I think the bigger stumbling blocks are if Teresa may can convince her lot and how the government will handle the impact on the outstanding 4 ship tender being fought between Reliance and L&T.