[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Drones will come - actually they are already there - but for the next generation I would like the fighter pilot to patrol at least some of the time.

I think they are here in quite big numbers already. Depends a bit on definition and how you count but the USAF has thousands of drones. I read somewhere close to 15% of their inventory is now a drone already.

And they have raked up thousands and thousands of flights. A lot of reconnaissance but also actual bombing flights as well.

Interestingly enough, it appears the bottleneck in deploying more is not so much the technology as the lack of pilots. The idea was that being a drone pilot would be a lot less stressful then being a real pilot. Turns out this is not the case.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...n_6488600.html

Jeroen

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

But will the drones and AI replace the human being – maybe not. After all ground can only be occupied and controlled by the humble infantry foot soldier and in war & defence occupation is 99.99% of the law as Pakistan discovered in Siachen and we in Aksai Chin and the Chinese in Arunachal Pradesh. This post is not meant to be a criticism of PGA’s post as it is but natural for most of us to get influenced by theories put forth every time a big new technology makes an appearance.

I think by now everyone knows of the importance of 'boots on the ground', and one whose blood can and will be spilled, in some foreign land which will not be foreever (name your country).

In 1957 with the advent of the first guided missiles Britain’s Defence Minister one Duncan Sandy’s declared all manned aircraft obsolete and actually cancelled all existing military aircraft programmes save two.

Same thinking by the Americans led them to discount dogfighting capabilities in their new fighters. (IMHO correct decision, but taken way too early, and without hedging their bets.)

Drones will come - actually they are already there - but for the next generation I would like the fighter pilot to patrol at least some of the time.

Got a laymans' question: what is the role of a fighter, and which f these roles will be taken over by the UAV?

Regards
Sutripta

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I hope the IAF & the Govt close on the Rafale and get moving. The last thing we need is another 5 year evaluation. The Rafale, like the Mirage before it, has had a solid record of reliability and that counts for a lot.

I'm going to fully get behind this. Time is the last thing we can afford to lose. The IN should simply get with the picture and join the IAF in going all in for the Rafale. (I mean it's not like the Rafale isn't flying off of flat tops in the middle of the ocean already!!) That way we get a proven platform that's passed a full trial and evaluation programme, achieve commonality in servicing and parts across 2 services (which in turn opens the door to achieving much more favourable terms for ToT down the line and more pressingly, the need for there to be local components hubs for repairs at the very least). Furthermore, with Egypt and Qatar also buying in to the Rafale it wouldn't exactly make India a sole foreign operator for the jet so there's every chance we could end up being important operators with quite some say in the future development of the platform. Honestly if I were Dassault, I'd mock up a test of a combat load laden Rafale taking off of a ski jump to really drive the point home and bring in the orders for them.
And again, France will likely not burn us diplomatically over the jets in future, we can expect full support. Macron would certainly welcome the fillip a big order would be for his countrymen. The only darn problem is our insistence for an unrealistic level of tech transfer. I think we really need to be a bit pragmatic and get as much as we can hope for now, in the interests of getting the jets parked up with IAF and IN roundels ASAP. I have no doubt that If significant numbers of Rafales already called India home, India could go into future ToT negotiations for later tranches with a much stronger hand.

And in terms of the single engine platform, surely the best thing to do is just kick HAL into actually churning out the Tejas in worthwhile numbers and just committing to it too. We're too far down the line here and I believe the best bet would be to involve partners with similar geopolitical interests such as France Israel and Japan into our development programmes of the future. This would include incremental improvements for the Tejas and our touted 5th gen platforms. Japan has need for it and has shown their hand with a technology demonstrator; noises are coming out of Europe of a European 5th gen - which implies the French would like one of their own. So why not get in bed with either or both of the two for this? It's not like India would've got our indigenous one out before them so might as well partner and get it done right when it does happen. In the meantime every other contingency must be taken to counter the perceived threat of the Chinese 5th gen twins though the J20 has clearly been made to strike at US tanker and AWACs over the long distances in the Pacific theatre and I don't see them immediately turning their noses towards India (perhaps we have the prickly White House administration of Trump to thank for this - though in his defence Obama did signal the pivot towards the Pacific again).

[PGA]

Originally Posted by PGA

Do we really need new fighters at all, generations are gone one would say after watching this video ???

My statement was more of a metaphor, two smileys at the end was supposed to convey that but apparently misfired.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

After all ground can only be occupied and controlled by the humble infantry foot soldier and in war & defence occupation is 99.99% of the law as Pakistan discovered in Siachen and we in Aksai Chin and the Chinese in Arunachal Pradesh.

In 1957 with the advent of the first guided missiles Britain’s Defence Minister one Duncan Sandy’s declared all manned aircraft obsolete and actually cancelled all existing military aircraft programmes save two.

Having spent 26 year in the blue uniform and few years dealing with technology being discussed here, I agree with the point about necessity and the likelihood of manning the cockpit, atleast for another decade or so in our context.

However, in this age of 'Analytica', I think territory occupation and domination is a concept whose time has gone by. All events post Vietnam indicate that to me. (No party has achieved anything for what they set out in first place, no territory and no goodies attributed to victory, exception being 1971)

No technology is comprehensive and no history lesson is ever complete, but humans have always excelled in making better and more efficient killing machines. Drones, UAV's, UCAVs, AI et al, in my opinion are just capabilities in hands of the operator as was gun some centuries ago and it certainly and quickly replaced bow and arrows.

Coming to our specific context, I do not think it is ok to buy nth gen fighter or a frigate or a tank, just to maintain continuum of a notion. I hope the cost to the nation for such a purchase has been considered. We wouldn't have been lingering for so many years with virtually all our purchases if it was not prohibitive both financial and at times diplomatic. A foreign military equipment is invariably planned for sub optimal utilisation by the seller, atleast till the time he moves to the next higher level. So if we have to maintain the status quo of doctrines, it will be prudent that we keep our expectations in line with our intrinsic capabilities. Or consider leapfrogging into the next generation, if expectations run ahead of capabilities, by adopting frontiers opening up today, maybe little aggressively.

In my opinion, in the foreseeable future domination of mind space is a better option than putting boots on the ground, unless absolutely necessary, as neither we have them spare nor dispensable. Effort and resources spent on control and degradation of adversary's networks or building own capability is a better option than buying off a depreciating hardware. Capabilities better be built on the paradigm of precision, max lethality, speed and minimum collateral. Dog fights are indeed archaic.

[reppy]

Guys I was liking the Gripen - Saab was ready to bend over backwards and transfer all tech in case selected (which the Americans are not agreeing to for the core F16 tech...not sure about the F/A 18 though)

Also if HAL can pull through, I always thought Tejas Mk2 would have had everything the IAF wanted...and with the HAL ipo I thought they were taking care of funds for expanding production.

This is getting more and more confusing now with new players entering the fray.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by PGA

My statement was more of a metaphor, two smileys at the end was supposed to convey that but apparently misfired.

Ouch. My apologies PGA. I completely misunderstood.

Having spent 26 years in the blue uniform

My salute to you. Always a delight to have an officer from the IAF on a thread like this. We need someone to hammer common sense into our ramblings.

However, in this age of 'Analytica', I think territory occupation and domination is a concept whose time has gone by. All events post Vietnam indicate that to me. (No party has achieved anything for what they set out in first place, no territory and no goodies attributed to victory, exception being 1971)..........In my opinion, in the foreseeable future domination of mind space is a better option than putting boots on the ground, unless absolutely necessary, as neither we have them spare nor dispensable. Effort and resources spent on control and degradation of adversary's networks or building own capability is a better option than buying off a depreciating hardware.

Aahh now that is a very interesting new paradigm to debate and learn about. Things are changing fast for sure.

Dog fights are indeed archaic.

Till the Air Forces of the world are run by fighter pilots this will be a hard one for them to swallow.

Originally Posted by ads11

The IN should simply get with the picture and join the IAF in going all in for the Rafale. (I mean it's not like the Rafale isn't flying off of flat tops in the middle of the ocean already!!) That way we get a proven platform that's passed a full trial and evaluation programme, achieve commonality in servicing and parts across 2 services

As always you write down excellent posts with fresh thought and perspectives. IN+IAF would love it. Will it happen I don't know.

And again, France will likely not burn us diplomatically....The only darn problem is our insistence for an unrealistic level of tech transfer. I think we really need to be a bit pragmatic and get as much as we can hope for now

I have no doubt that If significant numbers of Rafales already called India home, India could go into future ToT negotiations for later tranches with a much stronger hand.

A rare moment of disagreement with you ads11. Our strongest moment of negotiation arm wrestling is at the start before the inking is done. While there are limits to ToT the other side will concede the time to push is now. after that we have our hand in the monkey jar.

I believe the best bet would be to involve partners with similar geopolitical interests such as France Israel and Japan into our development programmes of the future.

Agree 101%.

[AJITHAAA]

Hollywood has really been the time machine through which we can see what is coming in the future. The future depicted now in terms of weapons is really scary at least for the human race as its dominance is challenged by very own machines it developed. We can all hope this depiction of future turns out to be fiction only.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by PGA

My statement was more of a metaphor, two smileys at the end was supposed to convey that but apparently misfired.

Lack of familiarity with the smiley convention has been source of major misunderstandings in cyberspace, where the tone in which something is said can't be made out.
And will continue to do so, I suppose.

Maybe should be put down somewhere in TBhp forum rules!

Regards
Sutripta

[PGA]

https://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...le24368073.ece

Things seem to be moving at good speed, at least for now. The tough part however is still some distance away that is when commercial bids start getting analysed. And it will be time for elections in the country and what happens next I think even the God doesn't know.:what:

[dhanushmenon]

Found an interesting and informative article on Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft being developed by the DRDO. https://kaypius.com/2020/10/24/thoug...aircraft-amca/

The author is a retired Navy Test Pilot, who has served with HAL extensively during his tenures in the Flight Testing facility at Bangalore.

AMCA – At a glance

Starting 2010, IAF had indicated key design drivers for the AMCA and drawn ADA into the loop. Today, a small geographically-dispersed but well-networked project team in ADA is giving shape to India’s own FGFA – the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). Notable features that make the AMCA a 5th generation fighter are summarised below:

1. 5th generation twin-engine multirole fighter with “some 6th-gen technologies” (as wished by ACM Bhadauria)
2. Advanced stealth features through design and materials
3. Aircraft with Artificial Intelligence (AI)
4. Multi-sensor data fusion (MSDF) and 3D audio for enhanced situational awareness
5. Advanced cockpit with large area display (LAD), touchscreen and 3D display for excellent user interface
6. Quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system with HOTAS-configured side stick controller and unified throttle
7. Automated takeoff and landing (ATOL), automated missions and auto air-to-air refueling (Auto AAR)
8. Voice-activated commands
9. Imported F414-GE-INS6 engines with 98 kN dry thrust for first two squadrons; indigenous 110 kN engine for next five.
10. Supersonic cruise on dry thrust (only with 110 kN engines)
11. Internal carriage of precision weapons (for stealth & supercruise)
12. Super-manoeuvrability through thrust-vectoring (unlikely in initial batch with 98 kN engine)

There's lot more information in the article. Well worth a read.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

Found an interesting and informative article on Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft being developed by the DRDO.

I doubt there is any work being done on the amca project at the moment. We just have an untested mockup of a model to garner interest at the moment. We currently do not have the capability to produce engines that can allow the fighter to supercruise thus bringing into question the stealth abilities as well as 5th gen monicker that we'd like the aircraft to have. Britain is even offering us the option of taking part in the tempest project which might work out better for us as I shudder to think how long we will take to make our own 5th/6th next generation fighter.

[Dieseltuned]

What happened to the order of 83 LCA from HAL?

[DrPriyankT]

Originally Posted by Dieseltuned

What happened to the order of 83 LCA from HAL?

If media reports by reputed journalists like Shiv Aroor are to be believed, the cabinet committee on security has cleared it, and we may see ink on paper in December 2020.